[1:16]
Tony: All right, we’re back. And Jenny, are you there?

Jenny: I am.

Tony: Hey, how you doing this evening?

Jenny: I’m good.

Tony: Good. Good. All right.  Well, let’s just jump right into it.

Jenny: Okay.

Tony: It’s been quite a while since we’ve spoken before today, hasn’t it?

Jenny: It has been a while.

Tony: Yeah, and just, you know, I sent you an email a week ago and asked you if you wanted to come on and join the show related to the topic of paranormal fraud that we’ve been doing. We have quite a series going here. And you listened to the show, you know, the two shows we aired about a week ago or two weeks ago, and you were kind of shocked at what you had heard.

[1:58]
Jenny: I was. I mean, I wasn’t, it was, it was heartbreaking more than, I guess, shocked, but it was, it was very heartbreaking. And, you know, I can understand where the victim was coming from, because the person is very, you know, she can manipulate you to believe the way that she is trying to, you know, the side of the story she’s trying to convince you with.  I fell into that trap too. So, and it just broke my heart. And I’m like, oh my gosh, you know, that poor woman, I felt really sorry for her. I did.

[2:28]
Tony: Now, you said you fell into that trap too, and we’ll get to that in a little bit here. Can you talk a little bit about what, what happened that kind of caused us to fall out and not communicate with each other anymore?

Jenny: Well, originally we all came in together on a project, that, that’s how we, you know, initially all met in person. And there was a lot of, I think a lot of manipulating going on in that, not on your part, but on some other parts from people that we brought in. You know, I was responsible for, I guess, you know, reacting in a way that I shouldn’t have, and in a very negative way. And then we all came back together because when we, we were actually on, you know, Animal Plant’s ‘The Haunted’, they did an episode. And that kind of set the stage for us to all become friends again, because you guys were actually in that episode. And then in the course of that time, the subject that we’re going to talk about tonight, she actually, at the time, I met her through, I guess she was, you know, friends with you all, and then I met her and that way, you know, through Facebook. And I remember the first time that I had my suspicions about her, I contacted Kat. And I said, I think there’s more to this than what we’re all seeing. I think that there’s just something not right about it. And the ultimate fallout, I think, the last time was that I just wouldn’t listen to Kat. And she was trying to tell me what, you know, what you guys had discovered. And I just, I was so hardheaded and so stubborn that, you know, I just wouldn’t listen. I just was like, no, you know, I’m not going to listen to this. I don’t believe you. She’s told me her side of it. Let me, you know, make my own decisions. So I think that, I think in a lot of ways, I don’t want to say ego, but it was more of a, you can’t tell me what to do type thing. So I guess maybe it was a little, does that make sense?


[4:29]
Tony:  Yeah, I think everybody had a little bit of ego. So it’s okay to say that.

Jenny: Yeah. And looking back, it was kind of like, you know, I was the one that brought it to Kat. So I’m not sure why I didn’t just go ahead and listen to her, you know?



[4:44] [Amy Morrison Rodriguez sent emails pretending to be Douglass Lewis MacLeod]
Tony: Yeah. All right. So, yeah. So you had had, you know, a little bit of a conversation with her and some interactions with her after, you know, we had kind of got back together and kind of mended our issues that we had with Henryton.  And we were friendly again, and we were chatting again. And, you know, she had reached out to contact with you. Now, did you find that odd at all when, you know, one of our team members you didn’t know was reaching out to you?  

Jenny: You know, I didn’t at first.  I thought, you know, because they, she was a friend of yours, you know, a friend of yours. I thought, you know, I didn’t see that as odd, but when her fictitious father came into the picture, that’s when I did start seeing it as a little bit odd because when he sent the friend invite, all of a sudden, you know, this whole producer thing, and I’m going to say he, which was really her, Amy, pretending to be her father, would send emails. And, in fact, I really need to see if I can find those. But it was like, you know, my father knows a lot of producers. And if I remember correctly, he was a producer as well, or an attorney. I can’t remember which one because she’s told so many stories.

Tony: Yeah. So, Amy’s father, or you called him her fictitious father. What was it? Did you know right away that he was fictitious? Or was there anything just as suspicious about his friending you?

Jenny: Yeah. I mean, right off, I was a little kind of iffy about it because, you know, I didn’t see that you guys had a very big, you know, strong connection with this, you know, supposed father. You know, I did see that he was friends with various other people. But I found it really odd that her father was adding people that she knew.


[06:44] [Amy exposes herself ‘catfishing’ Jenny, as Douglass Lewis MacLeod]

And I was in an interview one night because the TV show had aired, The Haunted. And so, I was on as a guest on another radio show. And it wasn’t going so well.  I wasn’t comfortable on this show. And I had put a status update on my Facebook page. The next thing I know, her, and I can’t even remember what Amy used as the father’s name. I think it was like Frederick or something really weird. That’s how well my memory is. But they showed up in the chat room.

Jenny: I didn’t hear you.

Tony: It was Douglas. Douglas Lewis-McLeod.

Jenny: Douglas. That was it. Douglas. He showed up in the chat room. And at one point during the conversation, you know, of the chat, he flipped up. And instead of using the third person, you know, talking about Amy as his daughter, he said something about the team audio.  Speaking of, I guess your-all’s team, team audio that he had to review. And I said, what are you doing reviewing, you know, that? Why are you-? He goes, well, Amy likes to send me some of the clips so I can hear them. And right then, that just stayed on my brain all night. And the next day is when I contacted Kat and said, look, something is not right here.

Tony: So he came in or his persona came into your chat room, into your radio station to listen. And like you said, he stopped using the third person. So it was like he was talking about himself.

Jenny: Exactly. Exactly.

Tony: And liking to review audio.



[8:21] [Amy posted a photo of a male model and said it was her father, Douglass Lewis MacLeod]
 
Jenny: Yes. Yes. And it was the way that it was written was like if Amy had forgotten who she was and started typing. And when I called, you know, I called him out on it, obviously. I’m like, well, you know, what do you mean? He goes, well, I met my daughter, you know, you know, blah, blah, blah. And she tells me everything. And she, you know, sends me clips to listen to. And I just found that really odd. I mean, first of all, you know, we all we all can flip up sometimes. And when you’re typing and make errors, you know, typos, but it was too big of a it couldn’t have been a typo the way that it was written, because it was written as if he was speaking of himself. And when you call that on it, that he immediately well, she did corrected it to be, you know, my daughter Amy. And the picture that he that they had on this Douglas page that was her supposed father, you would look at it and you could tell that it was one of those that you could go like out on like Google images and find

Tony: Yeah, yeah.

Jenny: And, you know, you can just look at it and tell that it there’s this, you know, he’s supposedly like this really wealthy man. Well, if you’re that wealthy, you know, even in that wealthy, I mean, it just, there was no pictures.  It was just that one picture. And I think at one point, Amy had put on his page, basically talking to herself, that, you know, you need to get more updated picture, because, you know, that one, you know, you’re so young in it, and you don’t look like that anymore. And I’m thinking, you know, she, she was, she looked so stupid when she did that. I hate to say that, because she was having a conversation with herself. Because right underneath of it, you know, she would sign into his account and type things underneath of it to respond back to her.

Tony: Right? Yeah.

Jenny: That takes a lot of energy and time.


[10:15] [Amy Morrison Rodriguez ‘catfished’ the paranormal community with fake ‘family’ social media profiles]

Tony:  It certainly does. And we just want to, you know, just to be clear, we’re talking about tonight’s show is really about, you know, the fake identities that she created and how she manipulated those conversations and pretended to be somebody she wasn’t. And it wasn’t just that one identity. There were other identities she used that she pretended where she was somebody else. But, you know, she put that one photo on there. And I think you kind of struck a chord there. She put that one photo on there of this young, you know, a younger person than who she was trying to portray. And it was like a model’s photo.

Jenny: It was like a-

Tony: It was very, it was very obvious it was fake.

Jenny: Yes. It was like the stock picture that you would get in Google images.  And, you know, you could tell by looking at it, there’s just something, you know, had she like used somebody else where it was like family pictures and, you know, different pictures of him. I may not have gotten as suspicious as quickly, but there’s one picture and he didn’t have a lot of friends. I think there, I think she even made up some family names.

Tony: Yeah

Jenny: I don’t know if you ever caught that. She made up actual pages with other family names that it was like supposed to be like nephew. And those are pages she created.

Tony: Right. Yep. Absolutely. And did you notice that, so here’s this man, he was supposed to be, you know, like you said, rich. And he had this one photo of himself. And he had this, you know, Oxford or I can’t remember what university he claimed to have gone to, but some prestigious university. And he was supposed to be, you know, the owner or yeah, he is or worked for an undisclosed production company.

Jenny: mhm, mhm, I remember that. Right. I remember that medium.

Tony: Yeah. He’s supposed to be some media mogul, and he never had any other family profiles, right.

Jenny: Uh Huh. Exactly. Exactly.

Tony: Except for Amy who he, who he, you know, he kind of created,

Jenny: he had created, I don’t know if you caught that there was like a cousin or a nephew or something on that page at one time. And it was a, it was another page that she created because I actually friended, I think it was listed as a nephew because I actually friended her and had the same last name as what he was supposed to have had. And there was really never anything like updated on that other page that was supposed to be a nephew.


Tony: Yeah. Now, how long had it been that you had been friends with Amy before her fictitious father came into play on Facebook before you saw him and he friended you?

Jenny: Uhmmm. It could have been more than a week and a half, if that long. It wasn’t very long.

Tony: Right. Right. It wasn’t long after he came onto Facebook that he friended you. It wasn’t long that you were friends with Amy before he tried to do.

Jenny: Uhm, I’m not sure. He had been on Facebook. He hadn’t been, I don’t think on Facebook too long. I’m not sure how long he’d been on it, but it wasn’t too long after she friended me that he friended me. And it was always the whole ruse that, you know, any friend of my daughter’s is a friend of mine. And, you know, and, you know, we had just, we had just finished, you know, they just aired the TV show. So we did get a lot of friend invites after that. So I just kind of took it as, well, you know, that’s why it didn’t seem as suspicious when she invited us. Because a lot of people did. When we got the one from him, I just found that really odd.


[13:50]
Tony: Yeah. And you can like, you can tell how long he had been on there because he didn’t have a lot of friends, right?

Jenny: No

Tony: When he friended you, you may have had, you know, maybe 10, 15, 20 friends.

Jenny: I don’t even think there was 10, to be honest, Tony. I think there was just a handful. And it was just immediate people like, you know, there were some people that had been added, I think, after we all were his friend, you know, with the supposed father. And I remember, I think she thought, she knew that we were all getting a little suspicious.  And that’s when she added the nephew one, or the one with the same last name that kind of gave us the impression that, yeah, oh, well, you know, it has to be legit because there’s other family members attached to the page.

Tony: Right. And all the conversations, I mean, he was having conversations with all the people as well as the other additional family members.

Jenny: Yeah, he actually did. Yeah.

Tony: Yeah, he did. So and, and oddly enough, those conversations were going on at times when if you were actually in the UK, you really should have been asleep.

Jenny: I agree. Because I even made a comment when he was in the chat room at that radio show, which it gets confusing, because I was really acting as him. But I even made a comment. I said, Aren’t you up very late for where you’re at? And the comment was made. Oh, I never sleep. I’m up all hours of the night and day. And I just, you know, there was just that. And I mean, he, he, she, however, you want to look at it. I mean, he was just like, going just in there in the chat room, just typing crazy to everybody, you know, just talking a lot to everybody. Yeah. And I just looked back on that. And it was like, it was weird.

Tony:  Now was, was there anything unusual about the friends that he was making?

Jenny: The friends? I didn’t hear the friends. What?

Tony: Did you find anything unusual, unusual about the friends that he was making on Facebook?

Jenny: They were all paranormal related.

Tony: Yeah, they’re all paranormal related. Everyone one of them.

Jenny: Yeah.



[16:01] [More of Amy Morrison Rodriguez’s catfishing with photos]

Jenny: They were. And that, I did find that odd as well. And, you know, at first when I, you know, I kept going back and forth with myself because I had a really hard time. I didn’t, you know, want to approach Kat. And I actually, in the letter that I wrote her recently, you know, I said, I said, I’m really not trying to be negative or anything towards anybody, but I just find things. And that’s when I told her about, in the email that I sent her about the, you know, conversation in the chat room. And it just, it just seems really odd that all of a sudden he’s got all these paranormal friends. He was supposed to be a wealthy producer. And then I remember seeing at one point on her page, she supposedly went to visit him and they were out sailing and you saw all these pictures that you put up that you can actually find those pictures in Google now.

Tony: Oh, really?

Jenny: Yeah. I don’t know if you, I don’t know if I ever told you all that or not.

Tony: No, you didn’t.

Yeah. Those are Flickr and Google pictures.

Tony: That’s interesting. We kind of suspected as much. And since you mentioned that, what was the oddest thing about all those photos that she posted about her and her family’s vacation?

Jenny: None of them were in them.

Tony: Right. None of them.

Jenny: There was no father. There was no Amy, there was no Amy’s, you know, family, you know, media. They’re none of them. They were just all of the scenery.

Tony: Yeah. And did she, did she mention anything about her father’s boat to you?

Jenny: She never directly mentioned that to me, but I know that I had seen that in some of the statuses and things that she had talked about. I believe they were supposed to be out on his yacht sailing for like so many days. And that’s when she supposedly snapped all these pictures, but yet there were no pictures of her on the boat.

Tony: Exactly.

Jenny: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Tony: So part of her, she’d gone out to California to visit him with her family in one of his many houses, because he’s so rich and had gone sailing on his yacht and, but no pictures of them having fun in any of these locations. None of them.

Jenny: None of them with the kids or anything. I mean, she’s got kids. There was nothing, nothing at all. And that did strike me odd, you know, because when you’re in family outings like this, especially if you haven’t seen your, you know, supposed father in so long, I mean, you would want pictures with him in them.

Tony: Yeah. Now you bring up another good point. She mentioned that she had not seen her father for a very long time. So you knew that.

Jenny: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. She told me that.

Tony: Yep. Go ahead. Sorry.

Jenny: No, I was just going to say, yes, she had actually told me that, but she hadn’t seen him in a while. It’s been a while.

Tony: But yet here he is right back in her life, every single day, having a conversation with her and hundreds and thousands by the end of his, end of her charade, hundreds and thousands of paranormal community friends.

Jenny: Oh, see, I got, I didn’t see the end result because I actually did delete him. Excuse me, because I, it just, it was just too weird for me. It was, it was one of those things. And, you know, and I told her, you know, and I kept, I kept telling her, I even told her towards the, you know, I said, look, I said Amy, we all make mistakes. You know, if you did that, if I, you know, you just tell me, you know, I’d rather you tell me and, you know, own up to things, then, you know, continue to, you know, kind of make us all look like idiots. And even on the phone, even when she was called out on it, she continued to maintain that that was her dad. And, you know, she didn’t lie. And, you know, if I wanted the documentary produced, I could get that done. He had no problem. And I’m just, I remember it was like, that was her pull. It’s like she found something that she thought she could use to leverage her way into people’s lives. (Yeah) But, you know, pretty, I mean, and I hate to say this, but there’s a lot of teams that have popped up around the country. We all know this. Their main goal is to be on television. You know, (Right) that’s the hype for them. So what better way to get inside those teams and befriend all those by saying, oh, my dad’s a producer. He works for a production company.

Tony: Exactly.

Jenny: I mean, she’s not all bad in the head, but she’s not all stupid either.

Tony: No, she knows how to manipulate people. That’s what she knows how to do.

Jenny: Mm hmm. She’s very good at that.

Tony: Yeah, very good at that. And she’s very charismatic. I mean, she’s very, (Yes) it’s very easy for her to convince somebody in person that she is telling the truth and somebody else is lying.

Jenny: Well, she thinks 20 steps ahead. You know, normal people that are honest, that don’t manipulate people, they can’t comprehend what she’s doing because she’s always 20 steps ahead of the normal person because she has that entire pattern laid out before she even strikes to use it.



[21:12] [The same day Amy Morrison Rodriguez was removed from Maine Ghost Hunters organization Douglass Lewis MacLeod social media account suddenly & miraculously appears]

Tony: Now, did you know that, did you know that, you know, the very night that Douglas Lewis McLeod showed up on Facebook was the day, that was the night after we met with Amy in the morning and we told her based on all the lies that she had told us and all the commotion and drama she had caused within our team and all the stress that she had caused between Kat and I that she needed to leave our team?

Jenny: Oh, and he showed up then?

Tony: He showed up that night. We had been telling her, I had been telling her for weeks, I need proof that your father existed because I think you’re full of crap, basically. Because she had told us some very wild stories. I mean, just ridiculously wild stories. And you see some of those wild stories, but that’s nothing compared to the things that she told us. I can only imagine. Anyway, so I had had enough and I told her Amy, you need to give us proof that your father exists. I don’t care what it is, it needs to be something. And then she, David was there with us. It was me and Kat and David, we had met her at Panera Bread.  And when she was cornered and there was absolutely nowhere else to go, she was like a rat, cornered (mhm) by, you know, she just, she lashed out. She started swearing in public, we’re in public, there are families around us eating their breakfast. And she’s swearing at me and calling me names and oh, it was ridiculous.

Jenny: I remember, if I’m not mistaken, I know Kat, I remember now Kat mentioning that and I think that Amy had actually told me that that you guys had pretty much cornered her and that was her dad’s way of saying, look, you know, I exist.

Tony: Right. Yeah, of course. After months of, you know, now all of a sudden, this very secretive person is hiding from the paparazzi. Now he’s all over Facebook, making all kinds of paranormal friends. Made a lot of sense to me.

Jenny: And you can’t find that, you can’t find his name associated with any pictures on anywhere on the internet.

Tony: Anywhere. Yeah.

Jenny: At least I couldn’t.



[23:12] [Amy claimed to Tony and Jenny her father was Royalty]

Tony: And there are a few links when we tried to research and find out who, because, you know, she had claimed that he was royalty. And there are links on there about that.

Jenny: Yeah. I remember that.

Tony: Yeh


[23:22] [Amy Morrison Rodriguez becomes histrionic in a telephone call because no one believed her fake father, Douglass Lewis MacLeod, was real]
Jenny: I remember that. I do. I believe it’s called identity theft. I do. (Yeah, Yeah) I do remember that. Yeah. Yeah, because it, nothing like that. Yeah, I know what you’re talking about. Yes. She, (Yeah) and the thing is, Tony, I had her on the phone. I mean, and, you know, cause when I had contacted Kat, you know, I knew that it was causing, you know, a lot of problems because you obviously knew, right. You felt that suspicion right away, (Yeah) like I did. And she was on the phone crying and she’s like, I don’t understand why everybody’s turning on me. And, you know, I’m trying to help. And, you know, my dad doesn’t want to do anything but help and how dare people, you know, question that. And, and I tried to make her understand, you know, Amy, this is why people are questioning, you know, that we all make mistakes. And if you did just own up to it, she would not do that at all. I mean, she was very adamant that that was her father and I’m like, okay. So she believed it. So either she psychologically, she does believe it or she just wouldn’t tell the truth. (Right) Or both.


[24:33] [Amy Morrison Rodriguez had an emotional meltdown trying to convince her audience her non-existent father, Douglass Lewis MacLeod, was real]
Tony: So she called you up on the phone and she was dramatically crying. She, she was the one that was victimized. She was all upset because nobody believed her. And it was her real father. And, and we were the awful people lying about her. And, and she was, she made you feel that that was real.

[24:51] [Jenny Stewart challenges Amy Morrison Rodriguez to prove father Douglass Lewis MacLeod exists – Missionary Work – Out of the Country – Excuses – More lies]

Jenny: Oh yeah. Oh, exactly. And, um, she’s very convincing. I mean, because she would, she would cry so hard that, you know, you would, you would hear her almost hyperventilate and I’d be like, just calm down. And she would play on every heartstring that she knew, you know, she knew that the things to, you know, push with me to get me to back off. Um, and, and I don’t like making people upset. That’s just, I don’t, it really bothers me. And she knew that. And so anytime that I would approach the hole, okay, so, you know, why is this a question? You know, well, I don’t understand why in chat it was done this way, you know? And she would just start crying. You know, I don’t know why you did that. You know, that’s my dad, you know, you ask him and I’m like, give me a phone number and I will, you know, or have your dad call me. I mean, never. He was always, it was, he was conveniently out of the country. Anytime that you asked to speak to him or you ask for a phone number. And I finally turned around and said, you know, they have phones out of the country. I mean, just because he’s in a different country, you know, they have phones. And I think at one point she even said that you’ve done missionary work.  I don’t know if you guys ever heard that story. Did you ever hear a story about missionary work?

Tony: No. I don’t believe I’ve ever heard that story.

Jenny: Yeah, that was missionary work.

Tony: Missionary work. Okay. Oh, yeah. Okay. So you kept asking her if he would call you or if you could call him and like that he was conveniently out of the country.

Jenny: Mm-hmm. Exactly.

Tony: Right. Now there are cell phones. People carry cell phones around with them.

Jenny: Oh, Skype has been around for a long time. You can call from country to country for free now.

Jenny: I mean, there was no reason why, you know, I think at one point she avoided my phone calls and then we talked and that’s when the whole missionary story came up. And he was in a, he was a third world country. That’s when, and after that I slowly started really pulling back because I’m like, you know, and there was, there’s two other ladies that, you know, that were out in Maine that actually had dealings with her, that they had sent me an email and called me and they said, she’s crazy. Stay away from her. Because Amy was trying to get them to, I guess, merge a team with hers.

Tony: Yes.

Jenny: Yeah. Yeah. Like stay away from her.  And I’m like, yeah, a little late. I’ve got to figure that one out. But she did.  I mean, and you know, it’s really heart-wrenching to see her website because I actually, when I was listening, I didn’t even know that she had that. But when I was listening to the show that had the victim on it, Your-All’s last show, I actually went to the website as you were giving her the URL. And first of all, I looked and I said, oh my gosh, that picture is itself of her – Of Amy – It’s just, it’s very chilling. It’s very, she looks strange in that picture. And then I saw that she has international chapters (laughing) and I’m thinking, okay, if she really does, then she’s screwing a lot of homes up. That’s all, you know, because she doesn’t know what she’s doing. And I learned that firsthand, but she, and I don’t know what she was thinking. She referred a case to us and I don’t know what she was thinking when she did that.


Tony: Yeah. So, so I want to expand a little bit on a couple of things that you said. So she said that he was out doing missionary work in a third world country.

Jenny: Yes. That’s why

Tony: she didn’t say which country. Sorry.

Jenny: No, just the third world country. That’s why he couldn’t call me.

Tony: All right. Okay.

Jenny: I said, how convenient.

Tony: But he was able to email you.

Jenny: Do what?

Tony: He was able to email you, right? You exchanged a few emails with him.


[28:44] [To prove her fake father existed, Amy Morrison Rodriguez sent an email from ‘Douglass Lewis MacLeod’ to Jenny Stewart from a fake dot-com company that was set up just days prior]

Jenny: I did. I did. Not when he was supposed to be in the third world country. During all of the whole fallout and everybody is questioning her, I actually did get an email and it was from a company that we, it was from a dot com company and I need to really find all that. It was from a dot com company that my husband actually traced back to the ownership of it and the dot com had just been bought, like not even three or four days before the email was sent. (Hm)
Yeah. So, I mean, she created (laughing) the.com that’s in the email.


[29:20] [Amy Morrison Rodriguez creates fake online entities to catfish victims]

Tony: Yeah. She’s very good at that. She’s very good at creating.coms and fake corporations all over the place.


[29:27] [Amy Morrison Rodriguez sent an email to Jenny Stewart from a fake corporation with a fake letterhead to convince Jenny that Douglass Lewis MacLeod existed]
Jenny: Yes. (Yep) Yes. That was a corporation.com and I’ll try to find that. And when I do, I’ll make sure you guys get a copy of it. But it was a, I mean, it had a letterhead on, you know, it was an email with a letterhead, you know, and I’m thinking, this is just so, you could tell by looking at the email it was fake.

Tony: Right.

Jenny: And, you know, I played along with it to see if she would go as far as to possibly have him, you know, contact me. Could never find out what production company he worked for or was affiliated with at all.

Tony: You said that you didn’t know, can you repeat that? I’m sorry.


Jenny: I didn’t hear you

Tony: No that’s what I s- I couldn’t hear you, either. I was asking if you could repeat that last part?

Jenny: I would repeatedly ask what production company he was affiliated with and I would never get a response with, you know, well, we can’t disclose that information, blah, blah, blah. And that kind of threw me off. And, you know, at the time, we had just finished working with Chris Bozak and George Plainham from Picture Shack doing The Haunted. I actually contacted Chris Bozak and said, hey, have you ever heard of this person in any production company in this country or over in the U.K.? And no one had heard of him within any production company.



[30:46] [Amy Morrison Rodriguez impersonated a lawyer from the UK to prove her non-existent father, Douglass Lewis MacLeod, existed]

Tony: Yeah. Now, before we go, there are a couple of other ways I want to go with some questions, but before we do, I want to expand on that fact that he did not own a production company and that he didn’t exist. Do you know that, you know, I asked you about having <<Lisa Abney>> come on and share some experiences that she had with Amy. And one of those experiences was a phone call that she got from a female who was pretending to be a lawyer representing her father’s production company. So this person, Amy actually called Lisa and told her, I’m so-and-so from such-and-such a firm, and I represent Douglas Lewis MacLeod and his production company, and you are not allowed to use any of the video that was captured by Maine Ghost Hunters during your filming of the Henryton Project.

Jenny: I do remember her mentioning that, because Lisa and I actually did have a following up as well. And I do, when we, you know, had rekindled, reconciled the friendship again, I do remember her talking about that. I don’t know the details of it, but I do know that that was mentioned to me, that there was a phone call like that.

Tony: Yep. So she actually, she said the name of the attorney. Amy had actually said the name of the attorney, and Lisa repeated the name of that attorney to me.  We confronted Amy, or Kat actually confronted Amy, and said she wanted to know if it was true, who the attorney was. So we got the name and the name of the firm. I contacted the firm.  She must have found them on the internet, because that’s what I did. I searched for the firm on the internet and found that attorney’s name as an attorney for that firm. I called them.

Jenny: Oh, wow.

[32:30] [Tony learned Amy Rodriguez Morrison impersonated a female lawyer to intimidate a fellow paranormal investigator]

Tony: And their response to me, so this was a real person, the attorney, except it wasn’t a real person who contacted Lisa, but she picked the name of a real firm and the name of a real attorney and used that to pretend to be somebody. I contacted them.  The attorney said, I don’t have any Douglas Lewis McLeod. We’ve never heard of a Douglas Lewis McLeod. We’ve never made any calls to anybody in the U.S., didn’t know who Amy was.

Jenny: Wow.

Tony: Yeah.

Jenny: So she went as far as to actually locate an actual attorney.  See, that’s what she does. It’s like she’s, when I say she’s like 20 steps ahead of everybody else, that’s the kind of thing she does. You know, I’ll use the name of an actual attorney’s office if anybody checks.

Tony: Right. Wow. Yep, that’s exactly what she did.

Jenny: That’s scary, Tony. That is actually scary. That is crazy, and that’s very scary. Because I wonder how many other people she’s done that to.

Tony: Yeah, Oh, I’m sure.  We weren’t the first.

Jenny: Yeah, that’s… Now what? (Laughing) I just shake my head if I look back on it and think of how she manipulated everybody so easily. She’s good at it.

Tony: Yeah. Oh, she’s very good at it.

Jenny: Yeah, the more I find out, the more I feel like an idiot.  I really do, because she, you know, I try to, you know, think of myself as a little bit of intelligence there, you know, and she was good. And so you can’t break those kind of traits. You know, you can’t one day get up and decide that you’re not going to manipulate people. You know, she has to still be doing that kind of stuff.

Tony: Oh, you would think so, wouldn’t you?

Jenny: Yeah, well, looking at her website, I would say she is.

Tony: Yeah, and, you know, she says these things and does these things and they sound, you know, they sound so crazy that if you repeat them to somebody else or you try to tell somebody about these crazy things that she’s doing or saying, that you actually sound crazy, which is what you thought, right?

Jenny: Yeah, that’s the scary part of it, because a normal person can’t think that way. You know, we just don’t… Our brain doesn’t compute things like that. And when you start explaining this to somebody, they’re going to, you know, yeah, she becomes the victim nine times out of ten, and she likes being the victim.

Tony: Her being the victim, her playing the victim is how she gets through life. This is her life. Yeah, I see that now.

Jenny: And this isn’t something she just started doing.

Tony: This isn’t something she did, you know, five years ago. This is something she’s been doing since she was a very little girl in grade school. And this story about her father, who’s royalty, and her being descendants of royalty, and her father being some wealthy producer from Hollywood, she’s been telling since she was in, I don’t know, third or fourth grade.

Jenny: So this is like a fairy tale that she dreamed up of herself, and she… Does she actually believe it, or does she know that she’s telling that as a lie? That’s what I’m curious to know.

Tony: You know, we’re curious about that, too.


[35:49] [Jenny Stewart expresses concern for Amy Morrison Rodriguez being in client houses in lieu of Amy’s apparent mental instability]

Jenny: And people like that are very scary. And she’s going into people’s houses. That in itself scares me to death, because now I’m beginning to wonder if the case that she referred to, if she didn’t put her up to contact it, that’s… Oh, you got my mind thinking in a whole different direction now. I really… I mean, in… Off the air, I’ll tell you about this case, and you’re going to probably go… Yeah, now looking back on it, I’m going, I wonder.  You know, if she didn’t pick this person out and say, hey, you know, do you got this going on with you? Oh, wow. And I owe Kat an apology. So could you pass that on to her? Tell her I am very sorry that I did not listen to her, that I was wrong and she was completely right.

Tony: Well, she’ll hear the show. She’ll know.

Jenny: So… I just… I feel really… Go ahead. I’m sorry.


[36:40] [Amy Morrison Rodriguez uses “domestic violence” for her repeated sociopathic behavior patterns]

Tony: Anyway, yeah, so Kat will be listening to the show, so she’ll hear it. And I wanted to expand a little bit more on, you know, the fact that, you know, this is a behavior.  This is a pattern of behaviors. These are things that she repeats over time. This isn’t… She plays it off as something she did because she was in an abusive relationship and she had no choice. It wasn’t her fault. Of course, nothing is her fault. She plays it off as if it was a bad time in her life and it was a very short period of time. But this is a repeated behavior over years. We just haven’t found everything yet. She’s stole from that woman.

Jenny: And it’s probably… And, you know, honestly, you probably won’t find everything because there’s probably so much out there, Tony, that you probably… I just… My eyes are open that much further. You know, I knew she was, you know, more of a fraud than anything. And I felt sorry for her. Even knowing she was a fraud, I felt sorry for her because, you know, I thought, well, maybe she did have a horrible life and that was her escape, you know. But, you know, then it goes deeper and you just… It’s like she knows the right people to go after.

Tony: Right

Jenny: It’s like she hones in on them.  She knows… She seeks out the people that are going to believe her the deepest. And then how dare you ever question her because she’s a victim. And it’s just… That’s scary.  And now she’s got a paranormal team. That’s even scarier.

Tony: Yeah.

Jenny: I mean…

Tony: Right now, her teams are the ones… Her team members and her branch teams are the ones who are going to suffer. Do you remember when her father first came about? She created a team called… It was New England Ghost Hunters. So now it’s New England Ghosts.  She created New England Ghost Hunters. And…

Jenny: I remember that.

Tony: Her father was listed on that team, page.  Do you remember that?

Jenny: I remember that. I do. And… He was going to…

Tony: Do you remember what…

Jenny: He was going to finance all their trips and stuff.


Tony: Exactly. And she was planning a trip, wasn’t she?

Jenny: Yes.

Tony: And… So she was planning a paranormal road trip?

Jenny: Yes.  I remember that. Mhm.

Tony: And that was a pretty extensive… Go ahead.

Jenny: No. I was going to say, I remember getting event invites from her for the paranormal road trips.


[39:12] [Amy Morrison Rodriguez posed her non-existent ‘father’ Douglass Lewis MacLeod as her new paranormal team’s ‘benefactor’]

Tony:  Yeah. Yep.  So her father, Douglas Lewis McLeod, who doesn’t exist, he’s not real, was listed as the benefactor for the team. And she was planning this extensive, elaborate road trip, paranormal road trip. And they were going to hit all these big hot spots, like Bobby Mackey’s, theye were going to go to Gettysburg, they were going to go to Waverly.  And she was asking people to sign up. And I think the worst thing about it, and this is what put us off so much and made us realize we need to start telling people what she’s doing, was she was going to charge people.

Jenny: Oh, wow.

Tony: Yeah, for the trip. Now, I don’t know if she ever actually collected any money or not, but there were lots of people that were saying, I’m in, I’m going.

Jenny: Makes you wonder how many people she ripped off.

Tony: Yeah, doesn’t it?

Jenny: Because they had a Waverly trip, Waverly Hills. I remember Bobby Mackey. I mean, they had a whole bunch of them.  And she actually was listing prices and everything else.

Tony: Yep, she was.

Jenny: Yep, I remember that.


[40:15] [Another Maine team warns Jenny Stewart – in Maryland – to stay away from Amy Morrison Rodriguez because she’s “crazy”]
Tony: So here she comes onto the scene. She’s causing the stir. She’s making up this fake identity, making up all these fake plans for paranormal trips.  Now, you said that you were contacted by some other paranormal people here in Maine who told you that this woman is crazy and you need to stay away from her?

Jenny: Yes.

Tony: Do you want to elaborate on that at all?

Jenny: I was contacted by… Do you know who I’m talking about? Do you know who I’m talking about? Yeah, I do. She, Amy had contacted them and had given them my phone number and asked them to call me because Amy was trying to turn me against you guys even after Kat and I had had our disagreement and fallen out.  After they had talked to her a couple of times, they contacted me and said, just stay away from her, she’s crazy. So, yeah, they had dealings with her as well.

Tony: Yeah.


Jenny: And I noticed that he was using a logo that’s very similar to yours.

Tony: Oh, yeah. So, yeah, I noticed that.  That’s intentional. She’s doing that on purpose.

Jenny: Yeah, and she still lives herself as being from Palm Springs, California.  Yeah, she was actually born in California. I don’t think she lived there for very long. Yeah.


Jenny: It’s very scary. But she lists herself as having branches throughout New England, the U.S., and international with over 100 active team members (Yeah) within her 24 branches.

Tony: Yeah.

Jenny: That’s scary.

Tony: does she list her – now. I haven’t seen it for some time, but she used to list herself as a 13th generation psychic. Does she still do that?

Jenny: I’m looking. I don’t know. I don’t see that. Oh, I remember- Remember the test that she was taking?


Tony: Oh, yeah, the test. Why don’t you talk about that a little bit.

Jenny: I forgot about that. She was taking some kind of mediumship test, and she kept talking about how she was scared that she wasn’t going to pass it.  I remember that. It was supposedly… It had something to do with her being… It was about her being the generational medium, and she was so gifted that they wanted her to take this test at this institute. I’m beginning to wonder if it wasn’t a psychological test.

Tony: (laughing)

Jenny: I’m sorry.

Tony: We have similar messages from her where she talks about, Oh, they want to test me. They want to do thorough testing, but I’ll have to stay there for long periods of time, and I’m so accurate.


Jenny: Yeah, I’m at her website now, and that’s just scary. It’s. I’m trying to see if her site… I don’t know. This is the first time I’ve seen it.  Well, I saw it the first time when you were doing the thing with the show, the podcast with the lady that was a victim. If you go to her website, that is your all’s logo. She put a different face on it.

Tony: Yep.

Jenny: I just… Ugh. Yeah, I just… Like-minded individuals, that’s a little scary.

Tony: (laughing) Yeah, they are like-minded, and then they’re all causing problems, aren’t they.

[43:48] [Background checks are necessary – Amy Morrison Rodriguez was exposed and still managed to convince people she was a victim]
Jenny: Uh, yeah, I wonder what the rap scenes look like. The whole message that paranormal teens really should have out there is that you need to do background checks thoroughly on people. Even people that you think that are not the type that would… Because you would never think that she was that type to talk to her.

[44:18] [Amy Morrison Rodriguez’s criminal history was exposed and she still convinced people she was the victim in her own rap sheets]
You would never know. When I saw some of the stuff that you guys had presented to the public for the first time, I liked to fall out of my chair.  And even then I was trying to give her the benefit of the doubt. (Yeh) I was… Yeah. Because she was so concerned.  I’m like, well, you know… Because I don’t know if you look my name up, there’s some of me all over the country. And I’m like, well, maybe this is just… I said, have you tried to talk to her? Oh, no, no. And I still felt sorry for her.  That’s the sad part about it. Even after there was stuff that was presented in black and white, I still felt sorry for her. Because I was thinking, here she’s been through such abuse. And how dare people pick on her? Don’t do this. And it’s kind of like… When I got the phone call from the other team that had obviously seen some of the psychological issues as well, I really had to take a step back and then the whole thing with her dad. Oh, he’s in a third world country on a missionary.  How convenient. But I didn’t completely walk away. I just didn’t…

I did not have any more direct communication with her until she sent me an email and asked me there was a case that she had picked up out in Baltimore and asked if I would be interested, she would like to refer it to me.  Because she didn’t trust anybody else with it. And as crazy as that case was, I swear, Tony, if I ever find out that that was off stage, I just… Because we spent a lot of time… We spent our New Year’s Day with this lady. She had a lot… And when I say this, people are going to go, oh my gosh.  But she, the claim was that the woman was being abused. She was being by ghost. And when we first got the case, I’m thinking, you know, because you don’t hear about that stuff. But I still had to put it… I took the case. The lady was a guard at a prison. And I’ll tell you, it makes you wonder now, you know.

Tony: So this was a case in Maryland?

Jenny: Mhm.  It was a case in Maryland that she referred to us, yeah.

Tony: So you got to wonder how a case in Maryland like that got to Amy to refer to you.

Jenny: Exactly.  Because I even questioned that. You know, I thought… And we asked her, and she said that she had found – I guess, Amy, on a group, I guess like a forum. So I don’t know if somebody said, hey, you know, contact this group.  But she did. She referred that case to me. It was last year? Because we… It was last… I got the case in November of last year, and we closed it out on New Year’s Day of this year.


Tony: So November of 2010?

[47:24] [Amy Morrison Rodriguez leads a Maryland client to fear sexual abuse from a spirit presence, in a phone consultation from Maine]

Jenny: Mm-hmm. Yeah. And we closed it.  We did the final investigation. Don’t get me wrong. There was definitely something in this woman’s house.  But I’m wondering now. I mean, there really was something there. But, I mean, the things that the lady told us that Amy had told her makes me wonder now if, you know, because we can cause things to manifest ourselves. But I know that when she had discussed with Amy the fact that she was having a lot of poking and things like that on her back and things like that, she said that Amy had told her. She said, I hope that it isn’t going to try to become sexual with you. And then within a week, the lady was complaining that, you know, something was trying to have anal sex with her.


Tony: Oh, my goodness.

Jenny: Yeah. So it just makes you wonder how much, you know, because if she bought the trust of Amy, you know, bought into it, then I wonder if Amy didn’t feed that into her, you know? Right.

Tony: Yeah. And Amy actually did that on one of our investigations. We went into a client investigation where the only complaint, the client was curious. The client just wanted to know, I’m hearing footsteps. I just want to know what they are. I hear them, but, you know, they don’t bother me every now and again. I just hear them going up and down the stairs every now and again. And I want to know. I thought I heard the door open and close one time and then the door and then the footsteps.  So I just want to know what’s going on in my house. And she had a young boy. And we went to do an investigation with this location.



[49:06] [Amy Morrison Rodriguez terrified a client with fake psychic fear mongering that cause client to flee her home with her child]

Tony: And this was the night she scared the living crap out of this client. Told her there was some evil entity in the house. Basically pretended to chase the entity around the house until she got it to leave the house.



[49:16] [Amy Morrison Rodriguez injured herself during an investigation to convince team she was being attacked by a spirit]

Tony: But in the process, she faked being scratched. And we have this all on film. We actually saw her almost try to pretend at one point and we didn’t quite buy it. So she didn’t fake it enough for us to realize she was trying to present herself as being scratched. And then later on in the evening, she did it again and showed us scratch marks on her neck. And then, you know, she kept hollering to the entity in the house saying, tell me your name.  I demand you tell me your name. Like she was trying to do some sort of exorcism in the house.

Jenny: Yeah and

Tony: And at the end of the night, the client would not stay in her home.  She had to leave that night. She couldn’t stay there.

Jenny: Because of what she did.


Tony: Yeah.



[50:11] [Amy terrified a client with her ‘psychic’ advice, so thoroughly, the client refused to sleep in her house]

Jenny: And that’s what I’m wondering if she didn’t do this. Because this poor lady, she was sleeping in her car. Would not go into her apartment. And she was very scared to. And, I mean, we literally, because you know, if you have those fears.  And, you know, this lady was going on the internet. And she was having people do house clearings remotely. I mean, she was paying people over the internet.  And, you know, we finally had to tell her, you have to stop doing that. But the things that, you know, on the case notes, I remember, well, Amy said this. Amy said that. Amy said this. And I’m like, well, why is she telling you to do that? You know, you need to call it out. And, you know, rebuke it.  And take ownership of your property. And, you know, if you’ve got somebody that’s already, I never said they’re scared to be in their house. But, you know, they’re already having a feeling, an uneasy feeling. And you start telling them to do that. And they don’t understand paranormal. They’re going to get that much more fearful of their home. And that’s what scares me about her. Because you have no idea what you’re telling people. (Right) And, you know, you guys have, you know, you’ve seen firsthand what she does. So, and, you know, looking at that case, I can too. Because she does that to every case, you know. I just, and there’s 100 people supposedly under her wing. Oh, that just, that really is scary. It really is.

Tony: Yeah. Yeah, and like you said, you wonder how much of that she put into, you wonder how much of that she put into that client’s head and made her think that. And I also wonder if this woman was paying people for readings over the phone and psychic advice over the phone. I wonder how much she paid Amy over the phone.


Jenny: I know. I didn’t think about that until just now. I bet I could get a hold of her and ask her.


Tony: You should. You should find out. Ask her if she ever paid Amy.  And if so, how much? Because she claims all over her website that she charges absolutely no money for anything.

Jenny: Yeah, I will definitely. I’m going to ask her that. I will send her an email and, you know, definitely. Because that, I didn’t even think about that, Tony, until just now.

Tony: Yeah, that would be very good information to find out.  So, and there was no, you know, she did that at that client’s house that we talked about earlier, you know, where she pretended to be scratched and made it look like there was some evil entity there.

Jenny: And there was nothing there. It was residual, it was a residual activity, if anything. But there was nothing that that woman had to worry about. And she went to her and pretty much scared that poor woman to death. Yeah.



[52:55] [Amy Morrison Rodriguez creates chaotic atmospheres and places herself in the center of it all]

Tony: So, if there is no drama, she likes to create the drama and be right in the middle of it. And the more dramatic it is, because the more dramatic it is, the more somebody needs her to be there. You know what I mean?

Jenny: The more they’ll need, yeah, that makes sense. That does. That makes complete sense. That makes complete sense.  And people like that, you know, she’s creating, I could see her creating paranormal situations, so that she, you know, she could be the warrior that comes in and takes care of it.


Tony: Yeah, and then she could do some psychic readings on the side and charge those clients.

Jenny: Yeah, I’m definitely going to contact that client as soon as we end the show and ask her, because I’m very curious now as to how that came about.


Tony: Yeah.

Jenny: I really am. Yeah.


[53:47] [Amy Morrison Rodriguez lies publicly about how much experience she has in “the field of paranormal”]

Tony: And I’m not sure, she was in a newspaper article recently about ghost hunting in Maine, where she was going to, you know, preparing to go do a ghost hunt in a training session with some of our team members and members of the public. And I like how she’s always claiming me to have, you know, 10 years of experience with ghost hunting.

Jenny: How many?

Tony: At least 10 years. 10 years, over a decade. And right on her website, she says she’s a professional paranormal investigator who has been investigating for over a decade. Well, we actually have her, we have her application to become a Maine ghost hunter, and she didn’t have any experience. And that was in 2009. Wow. She didn’t know how to use her equipment.  Every time she came on an investigation, Kat had to show her how to turn her video camera on and make sure it was running and keep it working.

Jenny: I’m looking at her membership application.

Tony: Yes.



[55:00] [Amy Morrison Rodriguez can’t pass a criminal background check; lies about it; requires team members to pass background check]

Jenny: And it asks, first of all, I ask, are you able to be bonded through an insurance company? Which, that strikes me as odd. Do you have any type of criminal background? Please explain. Is she trying to get more of a ring going then.  How could you ask me about a criminal background when you lie about your own? Y’know?

Tony: Well, if somebody’s asking you, right, if somebody’s telling you, you need to pass a criminal background check, and if you have any criminal history, you need to tell me about it, you need to be able to be bonded, are you going to question their ability to do that? Or are you just going to naturally think, well, they’re asking me to do this, so they must be able to do that too, right?

Jenny: Exactly. Yeah. And what scares me is, if you are, you know, is she collecting money from people saying that they’re bonded through an insurance company?

Tony: Yeah, I have no idea.

Jenny: Are people actually giving her the social security numbers? You know, to run an accurate criminal background check, you have to have more than just a name and address.

Tony: Yes, you do. So, would I want to trust somebody that I, which people don’t, obviously aren’t aware, but, I mean, people are going to be giving her, let’s hypothetically say that she really does have 100 members, you know, she’s suckered that many people into being part of this overall branch of whatever.  Then, 100 social security numbers, 100 people possibly paying her a premium, thinking that they’re actually being bonded through an insurance company? I mean, my team, we have an insurance policy that covers the team, but we’ve never bonded anybody.

Tony: Right.

Jenny: And the way I understand that is, is that you actually are bonded, like you pay a bonding fee.


Tony: Exactly. Yeah, she doesn’t know what bonding means. She’s using it because it makes her sound professional, makes her sound like she’s legitimate, makes her sound like it’s okay for her to come into people’s establishments, but she has no idea what bonding really means. If she did, she wouldn’t pay it.

Jenny: So, you don’t think she’s trying to actually get people, you know, collect money from them for that? It makes me wonder.

Tony: Oh, I’m sure she’s saying that. Like I said, she’s saying she has insurance, she’s saying they’re bonded, she’s saying she’s doing criminal background checks. Whether she’s doing all that or not, I don’t know. But to say that she’s bonded, she could be saying that and then going to her team members and saying, well, you know, we have to pay for insurance and bonding, so I need you all to pay me $50 a month so you can be members.


Jenny: Exactly, so that you can be bonded and we can get into more places that way.

Tony: Exactly.

Jenny: That is so scary. So, if she had 100 people doing that, that’s a lot of money. Yeah. So, I mean, I don’t know that she’s doing that.


Jenny: I mean, theoretically, based on some of her past behaviors, it’s very possible that she could be doing that.

Jenny: Yeah, I mean, it puts up red flags because it makes you wonder, you know, the things like that. I mean, we have had a team, you know, we’ve been established for quite some time and I don’t have that on our application. Can you be bonded? I do, you know, we don’t ask if you’re willing to run a background check. We just do it now and we let them know that we’re doing it.

Tony: Yeah, and like you said, you know, you have to have a lot more information than just a person’s name and their current address to do a background check, you know, a thorough background check.  We don’t want to be responsible for having access to people’s personal identifying information, such as their driver’s license number, their date of birth, their Social Security number, their parent’s maiden name. So we made this decision a short time ago when we started to add more members to our team that if you’re going to be part of being ghost hunters, you need to march your little butt down to the police department and let them put your thumb and index finger on an ink pad and have them send us information about you.

Jenny: Yeah, that’s what we actually added. We haven’t added any more team members in a while, but that’s actually what we… People, you can run your own background check. You know, they can run their own. You know, they can run their own and give it to you because when you start messing with people’s social security numbers and driver’s license, I mean, but if she’s doing it, then she’s got access to people’s stuff. And if you’re joining a team, then the thing’s legitimate. You’re not going to have a bit of hesitation to give that to the team founder. That’s scary. That is.


[59:01]

Tony: It is scary.


Jenny: That’s very scary. Yeah. It is very scary.


Tony: Yeah. Yeah.

Jenny: I just, you know, I hope that a lot of people don’t get, you know, burned by her. I’m sure there has been more and I’m sure there’s going to be more, but I hope that it’s, hopefully people start wising up to her a lot sooner.

Tony: Yeah.

Jenny: You know.

Tony: Now, yeah. No, absolutely. I agree. I hope that people do start to realize. So, and that’s a good point. Okay. So let’s talk about that a little bit. So here’s this person who’s very charismatic. She’s very likable. She’s very much the victim whenever anything happens. You know, everything, everybody’s out to get her and she’s like, that’s her life and that’s why she has these problems. When, when that information a few years ago started to come to light about what she’s done and the potential for her to do these things again, did you believe any of that when you saw that?

Jenny: Well, I mean, I was very shocked when I saw it at first. I think for me, and I was still upset with Kat, and so that kind of clouded my judgment. Not that that’s saying it’s anybody’s fault, but my own. And when I looked at it, I remember, I remember distinctly telling, you know, David, my husband, I was like, oh my God, look, look at this, look at all this information.  You know, and it was very, essentially it was very difficult to go through. There was so much. And I did believe it.  I did, and that’s, that’s why I asked her. I had confronted her with it. I said, you know, we all make mistakes. And if that’s the case, then you just need to own up to it and move on, but don’t continue to lie about it. And, you know, I’m not sure if you guys have gotten more information since then. And I did.  You know, I still gave her the benefit of the doubt. I looked at it as, you know, it’s very easy to just put somebody’s name in a, you know, a search like that, you know, a background search and come up with, you know, if you don’t have everything. And I wasn’t, I didn’t know exactly how much information you guys had to do a background search on her. But my thing was, you know, it’s very easy to, you know, put somebody’s name in and get a bunch of different names come up. Because if I was to do that with my name, which I have, it would look like I was a criminal all over the country because there are, you know, and I have ran into that. And I had to prove that I was this Jennifer Stewart, not another Jennifer Stewart.

Tony: (laughs)


Jenny: So it was. It was. At first I was looking at it like, you know, because I just don’t see, you know, this and that. But then, you know, more things started, you know, happening with her. And it wasn’t so much even her criminal background that kind of eluded me that made me really not want anything to do with her. It was her behavior.

Tony: Right

Jenny: And the fact that I knew she was lying about other things. You know, creating a page to be her dad and going as far as to go into a chat room and then, you know, create a dot com to make me think I was getting emails from her father. You know, I was like, this girl’s crazy.  I don’t want anything to do with her. And but when I heard the victim actually come forward and speak on your show, I was shaken. I was literally my body was shaking. I was so upset over that because it was sad. That woman trusted her

Tony: She did

Jenny: and brought her into her home and look what she did to her.

Toby: I’m going to pause for just a second.


Jenny: Okay.


[01:03:13] [Tony reads certified criminal complaint documentation and police reports belonging to Amy Morrison Rodriguez]

Tony: And I’m going to read you. Now what I’m going to read, I’m going to read this directly from certified court documents from the state of Pennsylvania.


Jenny: Okay.

Tony: Okay. These are criminal complaints as filed with the courts. And these are the criminal complaints and police reports that led to the arrest and conviction and imprisonment of Amy Morrison which is her maiden name. Okay.

Jenny: Okay.



[01:03:50] [First criminal complaint docket – Amy Morrison Rodriguez – Arrest warrant affidavit] [6 Bullet Points]

Tony: Okay. So I’m going to pause for just a second. I’m going to start reading. All right. So here’s the first one. The very first and earliest arrest warrant affidavit and docket number. It says probable cause belief is based on the following facts and circumstances. There are six bullet points here.

January 28, 1997, Carol Oberholzer, staffers of Kissel Hill Collections reported the following to East Hemphill Township Police that on November 23, 1996, a check was passed without sufficient funds for the amount of $85.06. The check number was 1258. Then on November 24, 1996, a check was passed without sufficient funds in the amount of $41.60, check number 1259. Both checks were drawn on York Federal account, sorry, bank account. And the account number is here. They were both authorized with signature of Amy Morrison.  Amy Morrison was penned-in above the printed name on the account, Elizabeth Perlis.

Bullet point number two. Elizabeth Perlis told me, this is the person speaking, that she met actor, Morrison, in July 1996. Stated she added actor to her checking account in August 1996 for purpose of helping pay rent and bills. Stated the account was in bad shape and Morrison started bouncing checks. Stated she told Morrison numerous times not to write any more checks because there was no more money in the account. Stated she demanded of actor, referring to Amy Morrison, to remove her name from the account. Actor personally removed her name from the account on November 22, 1996.

Jenny: Wow.


Tony: She stated that she closed the account when she discovered actor had taken a checkbook with her that had check number 1250 to 1275. So she had a checkbook with 25 checks in it. Stated that after November 22, 1996, the actor had no authority to write checks.


Tony: Bullet point number three. Contacted Shay LaVeur(sp) at York Federal Bank Lancaster office. He advised he personally took actor’s name off the account on November 22, 1996.



[01:06:22] [Amy Morrison Rodriguez was caught trying to pass a bad check – faked pregnancy labor pains – fled being arrested]

Tony: Bullet point number four. Found that on December 8, 1996, actor, Amy Morrison, went to the SKH store in Mannsheim Township and tried using another check from this account but was not allowed to due to an alert put out by Oberholtzer about the checks. When questioned, actor stated she was pregnant, going into labor, and fled the store.


Tony: Bullet point number five. Through investigation, I found suspect is currently pregnant. This is January of 1997.


Tony: Bullet point number six, and the last bullet point on this docket. Investigation shows actor knew the checks were bad when she used them and would not have had authorization to use them. So this is a signed police report, part of an official court document, an arrest warrant affidavit that led to the arrest and conviction of Amy Morrison for fraud.



[01:07:23] [Another criminal complaint docket] [Another arrest warrant affidavit]

Tony: That’s one docket. The next docket has four bullet points, and this is the same detective writing out this police report. This is another arrest warrant affidavit.



[01:07:41] [Amy Morrison Rodriguez identified as the perpetrator via police photo lineup]

Tony: This is on February 21 of 1997. Susan Sostall, employee of Weiss Markets, 2141 Lincoln Plaza, East Hempfield Township, reported the following to the East Hempfield Township Police Department, that on November 30, 1996, York Federal Bank check number 1265 was presented in the amount of $211.25 to purchase merchandise. Obviously, this check came back as Mark’s thought payment.  The name was Elizabeth Perlis on the check, but it was Amy who was signing it. I’m not going to read all the boring details here, but investigations revealed that the actor wrote several checks in East Hempfield Township in which she was identified as the actor writing them by photo lineup. So they put her in a lineup

Jenny: Wow

Tony: so they could identify her as the person writing these checks. And, uh, it goes on and on. So that’s just two of the police reports. I have many more, but I don’t want to bore our listeners.

Jenny: So have you identified how many victims so far?

Tony: Well, all of these cases that we found in Pennsylvania have to deal with her stealing of those checks from Elizabeth Perlis.

Jenny: And she ended up getting thousands of dollars from her, didn’t she?

Tony: Yes, she did.

Jenny: What struck me the hardest was when she was talking and said that she ended up losing her home and everything. That broke my heart.

Tony: Yeah, she added Amy to help her. I mean, she let Amy move in, expected they were going to share bills and expenses, and instead of helping this woman, instead of Amy helping this woman, Elizabeth Perlis paid her rent.  She not only didn’t help her do that, she didn’t contribute, but she stole Elizabeth Perlis’ money.

Jenny: And that poor woman ended up homeless.

Tony: Right. To the point where the rent couldn’t be paid, the bills couldn’t be paid, so she left. She didn’t have any choice. What was she going to do? And you heard in the show where Amy’s boyfriend at the time threatened her.

Jenny: mhm, yeah

Tony: And the whole time, Amy was claiming that she was running from the abuse of an ex-spouse.

Jenny: Yeah, she talks a lot about abuse. It’s like in every relationship, there’s been abuse, to the point that you go, well, why do you keep going back to the same kind of situation? But it makes you wonder, between then and now, has she gotten so good at it that people don’t report it? She reminds me of the people that do those scams, those telephone scams with the older people. You know, you want to pay for it. She reminds me of the scam artist, you know, that does the telephone scams. You know, she sees that down in Florida.


Tony: Yeah. So she claimed abuse, got this woman to feel bad for her. When she contacted you, she claimed the same thing you said.


Jenny: Mhm. She, you know, the way Amy had presented, you know, she had made it out like when we did confront her with, you know, first it was, you know, some of that wasn’t her, she never lived in Pennsylvania. You know, if I remember correctly, I honestly think that she said at one point that she had written some bad checks before, but not in Pennsylvania. And I remember her saying, you know, I think everybody’s done that in their past, you know, once or twice in their past, but I took care of them.  You know, I’ve never been arrested. You know, but clearly the lady that you had on the show actually identified her. You gave her a URL. She went and saw the picture and said it was her. I mean, you know, how many more times could she escape it? In fact, it’s a big thing. I mean, you’re going into people’s houses under the pretense that you’re a paranormal team.  I would be, you know, when I’ve been into people’s homes, they, you know, they are trusting you because it’s taken a lot for them to even call you to begin with. So they don’t hide their medications or their checkbooks and things like that or, you know, for your name of their house. That’s very scary.  You know, I wonder if she’s done this to somebody under that same pretense. You know, I’m here to investigate your house and while you’re not looking, I’m going to steal a few checks out of your checkbook.

Tony: Yeah.

Jenny: That’s very scary. That is. That’s very scary because not only does it put, you know, homeowners at risk, but, you know, the steps that we’ve made in this field could be, you know, looked upon legitimately as an organization. I mean, she’s done harm to all the other investigators as well.

Tony: Yeah.

Jenny: She’s one of those people that once it gets out there in the open of what she is, you know, it’s going to give the entire community a bad name.


Tony: Exactly. Exactly.

Jenny: And people just don’t listen to it, though, do they? A lot of people look at it as, oh, you’re starting drama.  Why are you picking on her? And, you know, I’ll be the first person to admit, I did too at first, you know, until I started seeing the psychological pattern with her of being, you know, a non-she doesn’t seem like she’s there, you know. She tells lies all the time. We caught her, you know, you catch her in lies and you start to realize there’s something not right.  And then, you know, to really hear that story of the victim just sent it home for me that much more of what she’s capable of doing. And she can go to sleep at night and not worry about it.

Tony: Right.

Jenny: Yep, exactly. Did the woman ever get restitution, the victim?

Tony: You know, there’s absolutely nothing in these court documents about restitution to the victim. Nothing.

Jenny: That’s sad. That is. That’s very sad. I don’t know how she’s…



[01:14:00] [Amy Morrison Rodriguez stole a brooch from Elizabeth Perlis]

Tony: When I contacted that woman, when I found out that woman’s name and I contacted her, one of the things, one of her most important questions she asked me, and she talked about it on the show, was the fact that she lost her grandmother’s brooch, a family heirloom that was taken from her during this ordeal by Amy and was never returned to her. She lost it. Gone.


Jenny: And seeing that had no value to me other than the monetary value that she could get for it.

Tony: Right.

Jenny: She has no feelings.  It’s like she’s narcissistic as well, you know. It’s about Amy. It’s all about Amy.

Tony: Yes. Very good point.

Jenny: And that’s very scary.  I just… That’s… And it’s not been that long ago. It’s not like it’s been… She wasn’t in her teen years and, you know, stole a piece of candy from the grocery store and got caught. I mean, she got this woman to lose her home, and now she’s going into other people’s homes. That is scary. It is. It’s very scary.  People need to listen. They need… And I’m going to start promoting these because people need to be aware of what she’s doing because she’s got 4,999 friends on her Facebook page. (Laughs) There’s 4,999 people that she can scam, in my opinion.


Tony: Yep.

Jenny: And that’s scary.

Tony Yep.  Did you listen to Bob’s show?

Jenny: No. I listened to that one, and that one, just listening to that victim was… That just… Like I said, I was shaken by the time I was finished listening to that.

Tony: Yes. I mean, there’s a… Here’s a real live victim of Amy speaking out about how she was victimized, how she was abused by Amy. I mean, that’s… That right there should be an eye-opener for people. Yes. It really should. And, you know, we have our own radio network now, so, you know, I may have to make sure we do a show about this too, you know, just, if anything, to open the eyes of the people. It’s sad, Tony, because she’s running around acting like she’s a paranormal investigator.

Tony: Right.

Jenny: It’s sad. What better way for a criminal to get inside somebody’s house without breaking into it?

Tony: Exactly.

Jenny: I mean, that is… You know, we have a… Go ahead. No, I was going to say that just blows me away, because it’s all… It’s really sinking in now. It just… The more I think about it, it’s… I wonder if she’s… It just makes you wonder what she’s done already.


Tony: Yes. Yes. It’s amazing. And she plays on people’s heartstrings. She knows exactly what she does is she tries to find something that she can relate to with a person so they have an instant connection because, you know, either they’re related or they had a similar experience or, you know, whatever. That’s how she gets in. That’s how she gets under your skin. She makes you think you have a connection and she does it immediately.

Jenny: Yes. That’s exactly. She… It’s… And everybody’s picking on her. Everybody… Why are people, you know… And the reason that you guys turned on her is because her father didn’t want to, you know, invest in any kind of productions or anything with you all.


Tony: Is that what she said?


[01:17:30] [Amy Morrison Rodriguez altered her last name on social media to be unrecognizable to those ‘not in the know’]

Jenny: Yes. That’s why you guys turned on her. (Laughs) Yes. And I was… I just… It’s just… Yes. I have to go through and find all of… Because I don’t remember… Because she doesn’t use that last name. She doesn’t… Her last name is not even on her Facebook page anymore. I don’t know if you knew that or not.


[01:17:56] [Reference to the many last names Amy Morrison Rodriguez uses]

Tony: Well, you’ve got to ask which last name.


Jenny: Well, it’s true. I didn’t think about that. The one that she used when she was… Because now she uses just the ‘Aimee’ New England Ghost founder. So I don’t remember. Oh, and she’s got 5,000 friends now. She must have just added somebody.

Tony: Probably 2,500 of them are identities that she created herself. (Laughs). Now, when we launched that website, did you have… So you had already had some interactions with Amy. So Amy told you that we got rid of her or asked her to leave because her father wouldn’t support any – something to do with production?

Jenny: Yes. Well, you guys were trying to steal a documentary from me. This is the story. You guys were trying to steal a documentary from me, and when it was explained to her father what it was about, he refused to do it, and you got mad.(laugh)  And that’s why you turned on her. Yeah. A documentary that doesn’t even exist. You’re right.


Tony: Yeah, exactly. A documentary that was not a documentary.

Jenny: Exactly.


Tony: So did she say that before or after we launched that website?

Jenny: I’m trying to remember. It was after, actually. You guys were trying to ruin her credibility because that was your way of retaliation. Oh, and she went as far as to tell us that she had filed restraining orders against you guys and that you all were harassing her to the point that you were stalking her and that you all were in trouble with the police department there because of the harassment. Yeah. Do you remember what was her last name she was using? Do you remember?

Tony: Her married last name is Rodriguez.

Jenny: What was it?

Tony: Rodriguez

Jenny: That’s right.

Tony: And that is her real name. That’s her married name.

Jenny: Oh, is it?

Tony: Yeah.

Jenny: Ah, I’m trying to see if I can find some of the – I’ll go through and see if I can find some. I know, because I keep all of those. And if I find them, I’ll send them to you, all the e-mails and stuff.



[01:20:29] [Amy Morrison Rodriguez makes empty legal threats, publicly, against her victims when they speak out about her]
Tony: Okay, that would be great, actually. Now, apart from her talking about us being in trouble, I mean, she’s always claiming that whoever is threatening her or whoever is saying anything negative about her is committing criminal acts and in trouble with the police, and she’s talking to the police, and the police are going to go arrest them and all this crap. Other than that typical crap that she usually spits out, did she say anything else negative about us? Did she threaten us in any way?

Jenny: As far as, and I knew that she was lying about the investigating part, that you guys would go and get, like you’d go to a case, but you would never review the stuff that other people would have to do it for you.  And I knew that was a lie, because I know how meticulous Kat is when it comes to reviewing stuff. I knew that that was a lie. And you have to understand, all of this was in the course of maybe a week and a half after the fallout with you guys and you guys putting the stuff out there, because she would call a lot.  I mean, it was a constant thing with her. Right.

Tony: Yeah, so she always denied all of that criminal activity before, didn’t she?

Jenny: Oh yeah. Oh, Oh, yes. She – She would never, she never would admit to doing anything criminal or anything.


[01:21:55] [Amy Morrison Rodriguez told Jenny Stewart she (Amy) would ‘destroy Maine Ghost Hunters’]

Tony: Yeah. She, well, Kat seems to remember a phone call that you made to her saying that she had told you she was going to destroy Maine Ghost Hunters.

Jenny: She did say that. She did say that.

Tony: She did?

Jenny: Yes, she did. She did say that, you know, that she would, she did say that.   I do remember her, because I told her, I said, I think that you’re being, you know, just a little overzealous there. You need to calm down. And I kept trying to get her to talk to you guys.  And she said, you don’t understand. There’s no talking to them. And that’s when she contacted those, the two other people that also have Maine, that’s when she contacted them, (yeah) because it wasn’t long after that that, yeah, that I was getting a phone call from them.


Tony: Yeah. Yeah.

Jenny: And they said that she was crazy.


Tony: Yeah. And, you know, it’s funny. Sorry, I interrupted you again there.  It’s funny that you say that. And it’s good to hear that they contacted you. It’s good to know that they actually finally realized the truth about her. Because as soon as we cut ties with her, she used to say a lot of negative things about them. She used to say, you know, they know I’m a psychic, and they wanted me to help train them and make them better psychics. And they kept harassing me, and they kept bothering me, and they kept calling me, and all these things.


Jenny: Amy said that?

Tony: Amy said that about them, yeah.

Jenny: Oh, my god.



[01:23:24] [Tony sent a warning to fellow Maine team about Amy –  Amy manipulated them to respond with public attack of MGH they later regretted]

Tony: Yeah.  So I actually sent them a letter. I sent them an e-mail and said, hey, you know, I see you guys have made friends with this person, and, you know, I think you should probably give me a call, because, you know, this is not the person you really want. You know, we know we’ve had our differences.  I wrote them an e-mail out of concern for them, saying you really need to know something about this person before you get mixed up with them, because you are going to get in trouble. I actually called them and left them a voicemail. And at first, Amy – y’know Amy did the same thing with them that she did with you and did with everybody else.  And they actually posted a blog post about how awful we were for putting this information out there, and how terrible we were, and how we were harassing Amy, and we were stalking Amy, and all this crap, and all the negative things that Amy had said about them. She told them that we had been saying those things. So it’s good to know that in the end, they finally got the picture and understood who she really was.


Jenny: Yeah. They did, because we had a very lengthy conversation about her. And because we compared notes, finally, you know, well, this is what she told me about you all, and she’s like, well, this is what she’s telling me about them. And, you know, and like I told them, we put our differences, even, you know, whether we had differences with you or with her, we put them aside and we really logically looked at it. And, you know, I told her, I said, you’ve got to stop and look at it from all angles. And they said, well, you know, she’s crazy. Because some of the stuff that she was telling them and emailing them, it just was so far out there.  And I can’t remember, I don’t even remember what all it was, but I remember ****** called me and was like, you’ve got to, you know, be very careful with her. She’s crazy. She’s not right upstairs.


Tony: Yeah. That’s good. I’m glad to hear that.


Jenny: Yeah. No, they got really, they got really, and it did take us, it did not take very long. It really didn’t. From the time that, you know, the whole fictitious father picture came out, and we all, you know, kind of got onto that, to when you guys posted everything to, I think it was probably no more than maybe a week to a week and a half afterwards, that everybody was kind of like going, yeah, no, there’s something not right here. Yeah, because she was telling all kinds of stuff.

Tony: Yeah. No, I’m sure she was, and that’s what she does. She’s the victim, and everybody else has to have done something way worse to her than she could have ever done to distract you from what the reality is.

[01:26:02] [Amy Morrison Rodriguez created and forwarded fake emails to manipulate Jenny Stewart]

Jenny: I just remembered. Oh, my God, and I got to find these. She was sending me e-mails with me not asking her to, and I finally had to tell her to stop. She was sending me e-mails, forwarding me e-mails that were apparently between her and a Kat in reference to me, and, you know, I finally told her.  I said, you know, I really don’t want to see any more of this because you can actually, you know, my sister-in-law Jenny can actually tell people this. You can take a screenshot of something, and you can, if you know enough code, you can change what’s on there. Jenny actually did it once.


Tony: Absolutely. Absolutely.

Jenny: And I just told her because she was causing problems between me and my sister-in-law with those e-mails, and I just finally told her, I said, look, please don’t send me any more of this.  You know, somebody else I had a falling out with, she had done the same thing. She was forwarding things, and I was thinking, you know, if you’re my friend, then why is it taking a falling out with the other person for you to actually submit this stuff to me? You know, if you’re truly a friend, why didn’t you tell me this before? (Laughing) And, you know, I just finally told Amy, but it was supposed to be, like, e-mails that her and Kat had back and forth, and, you know, I just, and things that Kat had forwarded to her from other people in regards to me, and I just, towards the end, I didn’t want to hear any more of it. Even if it was true, I didn’t care. You know, I was at that point, I’m like, coming from her, I got to the point, how could you trust anything she said? But I’ll have to find those, and if I do, I will definitely forward those to you guys.


Tony: Yeah, those will be interesting to see. So now through all of this, right, I mean, we put out a website, and we, you know, the premise of that website was, hey, community, here is somebody that’s in and amongst you, and you really should, you know.



[01:28:01]


Tony: You know, educate yourself about so you do not get taken advantage of. And did we ever make any threats of any kind about Amy or her family or anything negative

Jenny:  No.

Tony: other than putting that information out there, which is public knowledge?

Jenny: That’s the only thing that you have to put out there. That’s I never thought, I’ve never heard any threats from you all. I never saw any threats written or stated otherwise. It was a very well put together website. I mean, you guys did a very professional job of it. I think what confused me, and now you cleared that up tonight, was the whole check writing thing because originally it looked like she wrote back checks. That was it. But I couldn’t understand, you know, it was very confusing.  But now you’ve explained, you know, I’ve heard that you’ve read to me and hearing the victim’s statement, that actually itself, it all made sense then. But no, everything was put out there. I mean, you didn’t disclose her social security number.  You didn’t disclose anything like that.

Tony: Right. And we didn’t, you know, we didn’t target her site.  

Tony: We didn’t target her family. We didn’t target her group, her organization in any way.

Jenny: No, you did not. You were just making the public aware that she did have a very lengthy past.

Tony: And that she was, you know, communicating some very delusional ideas about herself and delusions of grandeur about her lifestyle and things like that.

Jenny: Yes. Yes. And boy, did she. Yeah. Yeah.


[01:29:36] [Amy Morrison Rodriguez perpetrates offenses onto victims and then tells others her victims perpetrated those actions onto her]

Tony: Yeah, it’s interesting that you remember those, you know, those vacation stuff in the yacht and things like that. So what she did, and this is what she does, is everything that she’s said to you about us are things that she, in our opinion, in our observations, what she does is she takes what she does, all the negativity that she spreads, and she puts that out as if other people are doing that to her.


Jenny: Exactly. That’s exactly what she does. She twists it.  She’ll take any situation and twist it to where it suits her and makes her look like she’s being victimized. That’s exactly what she does.

Tony: Right. So she told you that she was going to destroy us, and we never said that. We never said that to you, but that’s what she said we said to her, to everybody about her.

[01:30:29] [Amy Morrison Rodriguez connects herself, via social media, to her target victims friends and family – infiltration tactic]

Jenny: Yes. Exactly. And that you all were, you know, pretty much stalking her, harassing her. At one point, there was supposed to have been a restraining order served, and she kept telling us she had to go to court because you had violated the restraining order.  And, you know, when we started really questioning her on that, that’s when I think Julie and Robin really got suspicious of her, and nobody could find any, you know, docket or anything like that, which is public record. Things like that are public record. And that’s when I think they really were like, she’s crazy.  Stay away from her. So that’s when everybody started kind of pulling away from her. But she would go on, she would get on your Facebook page.  She would, she would get, she’s one of those, like, you know, friendly- . She’ll get on your Facebook page, and she’ll, if she can see your friends list, she’ll add every friend you have, especially if you’re in the paranormal field.

Tony: Oh yeah. Yes. That’s exactly what she does. And that way she can talk about you behind your back.

Jenny: : Exactly. Yes. And make herself look like she’s a better paranormal investigator than anybody else.

Tony: Yes. Yes. Yes. So just to set the record straight, there were, we both had, we had mutual protection from harassment orders against each other, which they’re so easy to get. You just walk down to a court and sign your name to a document and say, hey, this person’s harassing me. So they give you a temporary order, and then you have to go to court. So that did happen on both sides. We had one against her. She had one against us. And basically what it was, was to protect us, because Kathy was afraid she was going to come to the house, and God only knows what she was going to do, because you’ve seen how she acts. You’ve seen how vicious she can get. So there were never any violations of that. And we never even had a final hearing, because we walked into court with some other people that she had lied to in person, and she decided to give up.

Jenny: Oh, wow.

Tony: Yes. So anyway, so I didn’t.

Jenny: To have her tell it, you violated a restraining order. And yeah, like I said, that’s when it really started, you know, everybody started going, oh, crazy.


[01:32:40] [Jenny Stewart sends personal warnings of concern to audience and paranormal field about Amy Morrison Rodriguez]

Tony: Yeah. But anyway, where I will, I’ll dig that paperwork out, because I do have a docket number, and anybody who’s interested can go to the Benefit Courthouse, and they can see it for themselves. They can see all the information. They can see all the information that was available on the website, because Amy printed it all off and put it in the docket.  So it’s there. So anybody that is curious, anybody that’s listening, feel free, take a walk down there, take a ride down there, and we can make those docket numbers available, so you can check it out for yourself. Is there anything that you want to say as words of warning or words of advice for people who may be listening to this, and think, well, you know, I hear one side, I can’t hear the other side, anything you want to say to them?

Jenny: Just be really careful.  When there’s proof in black and white and there’s more than one person actually telling you that this person is not who they claim to be, you have to put some stock into it. One of the things that I have taken pride in myself, and I know that you guys have as well, Tony, is the credibility that we’ve established in the field. And we’re credible, you know, established investigators that are saying, stay away from this girl because she has bad news, she’s crazy, and she is very, very convincing, but she’s a fraud.


Tony: And anything specifically to her team members that she has right now or her branches that she has going? Run as fast as you can and find a credible team because you’re only going to get hurt, especially on her team, because I would be very scared of having someone as a leader with a criminal background and such a big scam artist the way she is.

Tony: I know, it’s a shame to see that there are people like this out there, you know. And just, have you heard, there’s a website called, there’s a Facebook page called Stop Paranormal Bullying, have you seen that or heard of that?

Jenny: No.


[01:34:39] [The challenges of educating the paranormal field about fraud, scammers, and con artists in its matrix]

Tony: No? It’s, the person who runs the page won’t allow his identity to be known, so he’s hiding himself, right? So he’s probably someone who created some fake evidence or did some defrauding of his own, and he got called out on it, so now he’s angry at the world and angry at everybody else in paranormal and put this page together. Well, we started talking about, you know, Amy and the situation and warning people. And he started flaming us for doing that. And one of the things he said was, you know, if there’s really a problem, unless this person has an open warrant for their arrest, Maine Ghost Hunters should just shut up and ignore it and it’s not their problem. (Wow) We posted back a link, we posted back a link to a court in Ohio, Avon Lake, Ohio, to a court case where there is an active open warrant for the arrest of the crime she committed, and when we put that up, he took it down.

Jenny: Really?

Tony: Yeah, so there are people out there who just will not listen. Put the black and white in their face, and they will not listen.  So, you know, we can only do what we can do. We’re trying to protect the community, and just, that’s our purpose. So she has an open warrant.

Jenny: I’m over there now, and it’s, yeah, this looks like a, I’m sorry, but kind of like a joke. Avon, Avon, go ahead. No, I just, it’s very funny that, you know, I just don’t get why people, they say, you know, stop the bullying, but yet they don’t want to listen to, you know, isn’t somebody scamming somebody? Isn’t that bullying? Aren’t you being lied to? And the things that she did, I mean, to me, I would consider that bullying.



[01:37:28] [Tony declares – MGH ‘Fraud in Paranormal’ podcasts exist to warn the field of paranormal about Amy Morrison Rodriguez]

Tony: Yes. Yeah. So, you know, the only reason I bring up that page is because, like I said, we, here we are trying to build community awareness and, you know, educate the public on the threat in the community.  And this person who has this page decides that that’s bullying, that we’re picking on somebody. And, you know, there’s a clear difference between, you know, paranormal drama and serious messages of concern. We are concerned for the community.  We are concerned for the people that she is having associated with her in her organization. And we are concerned for the clients whose homes and businesses she’s going into.

Jenny: And that’s where people should be, you know, concerned because, you know, if she’s got that lengthy, like I said, the criminal background that she has, you know, wasn’t it just, it wasn’t too long ago that, you know, the paranormal field community had this big uprising about, you know, doing background checks because there was pedophiles that were actually a part of teams and they were going in and, you know, were around the homeowner’s children. So why is there not an uproar within the community about thieves, about people that are stealing, you know, the people that have past records of theft and scamming? I mean, I would be concerned about that because I guarantee there’s more of those than there are pedophiles that are part of teams.

Tony: Yeah.

Jenny: I just, she needs to be, she needs to be really looked at, you know, as somebody that’s a fraud and a danger to any homeowner that she comes across and any team, any person on a team, you know.


[01:39:14] [Amy Morrison Rodriguez’s apparent narcopathic-type tendencies are apparent, oftentimes documented, lifelong patterns]

Tony: Yeah. So, again, we just want to, and we, you know, we haven’t said this, I haven’t said this in this show yet, but we say it in every other show. It’s not just the fact that she committed some crimes a long time ago and learned her lesson because that’s not the case here.  She committed crimes and she exhibits the same behaviors that she exhibited back then of fraud and lying and pretending to be as though she’s not. So, I, Jen, if you would, I’d like you to kind of, you know, just reiterate, you know, the fake identities and the many fake personas that Amy portrays and puts out there, the fake, you know, just the fakeness of everything that she does, that she defrauds people with.

Jenny: Well, that’s something that if you’re a paranormal investigator or just a person listening to this, you need to really think about one of the things that we strive for is credibility.  And so, that’s pretty much all you have is your credibility. How can you have credibility if you are creating numerous, not one, not two, but numerous fake profiles and interacting with them as if they’re somebody else and, you know, creating and conjuring up all these fantasy stories and then when you’re caught, all of a sudden you turn around on everybody else as people are attacking you. So, that’s something that people should really think about, you know, all of the pages that she has created in itself. I mean, that was just as recent as last year. So, she hasn’t learned her lesson. It has nothing to do with that. She’s no different today than she was, you know, 10, 11 years ago, except she may be a little bit more cautious about how she does her, you know, her business, so to speak.

Tony: Yeah. So, she’s crafty to the point where she doesn’t learn. She just learns to be better at what she’s doing.

Jenny: Exactly. Yeah. That’s what you’re trying to say.

Tony: Yeah. And if you could just, you know, kind of reiterate the name, you know, the name of at least one of those fake IDs of her father.

Jenny: Oh, Douglas McLeod. If you see that name, run, because it’s her.

Tony: Yeah.  …. ….. …. ….. All right. Well, I really appreciate you taking the time to be on the show tonight, Jen. And I know that, you know, you, as a respected member of the paranormal community, have the same concerns that we do.  We want to make sure that the community is safe, that our, you know, our home communities are safe, and that people are not taken advantage of in this way. And, you know, just keeping the paranormal community straight. I appreciate you guys spreading the word.

Tony: Alright, well very good Jen. Definitely stay in touch … … … …

(1:21 – 1:45)

Tonight we’re continuing our paranormal fraud series regarding teams in New England and across the nation who’ve had experiences or perpetrate fraud under the guise of paranormal investigation teams. We’re going to have a special guest this evening, Eric Caceres. We interviewed Eric regarding his interactions with a particular team here in New England.

 

(1:46 – 2:02)

And we prerecord simply so we can cut out anything without being disrespectful or naming names and things like that. So we’re going to bring in a few of the team members. We have on the line Teresa, MGH Cat, and we also have Erica on the line.

 

(2:02 – 2:16)

So we’re going to bring them in. We’re going to have a little quick discussion and then we’re going to jump in and let you hear our interview with Eric. Cat, are you there? I am.

 

Can you hear me? I can hear you. All right. Hello.

 

(2:16 – 2:20)

Okay, just a moment. I’m going to bring in Teresa. Right now? Hello, Teresa.

 

(2:21 – 2:28)

Oh, hi. All I heard was a beep. So Teresa is also here with us.

 

(2:28 – 2:31)

We have Cat on the line. Cat’s mic is open. Be patient.

 

(2:31 – 2:35)

We’re going to bring in Erica. Erica, are you there? I’m here. Excellent.

 

(2:36 – 2:45)

All right. The gang’s all here. So tonight’s segment is, again, like I said, it’s a continuation of our Paranormal Fraud series that we’ve been working hard on.

 

(2:45 – 3:14)

We’ve spent a lot of time interviewing several people across New England with a focus on paranormal fraud, their interactions with disreputable places, disreputable teams, things like that. Just trying to build some awareness and make sure that the public is well protected and knows who they’re dealing with. And tonight’s guest is Eric Caceres, and we have about a half hour of an interview that we had with him, and we’ll play that shortly.

 

(3:14 – 3:59)

So, Cat, do you want to lay down a little bit about why we decided to do the Paranormal Fraud series? Sure. It’s kind of an unfortunate situation, but we had an extensive amount of experience with someone with an extensive criminal history, and we were fed so many different untruths for such a long period of time that the concern right now is that this person is now leading a team, leading a group. For me, personally, as a team leader and a founder of an organization that’s been around for four years, we’ve been pretty busy throughout those four years.

 

(4:00 – 4:09)

I know that through our four years of being in existence, we’ve seen paranormal drama. We’ve seen it. There’s drama everywhere in every walk of life.

 

(4:09 – 4:29)

I get that. But there are certain situations where when people say, you need to be careful, you need to pay attention to this, when they give you hard facts, when they give you documented proof, that’s not paradrama. That is a solid, stern, real-life warning.

 

(4:31 – 5:05)

And in this case, with paranormal investigations, the paranormal teams, paranormal groups, paranormal investigation groups, et cetera, they’re conducting these investigations on a voluntary basis because anyone in our circle of this society that we have going on here who charges, God, I wouldn’t want to be them because they’re ostracized. So people automatically think that, well, if they’re doing it for free, they must be doing it out of the goodness of their hearts. But there are actually people who are doing it for free because they’re scoping a place out.

 

(5:05 – 5:26)

You know, they’re looking to do things that are not necessarily in the good nature that the rest of us are, for instance. And there are people who have extensive criminal histories to back that up. You know, people can say, oh, I don’t like this person, I don’t like that person, they were on our team, we kicked them off for whatever reason.

 

(5:26 – 5:45)

You know what, he said, she said. But when we remove somebody from our team because they have a criminal history longer, literally, longer than my arm, like a stack, how many pieces of paper did we print out of the printer for the criminal history that we know about, Tony? Oh, we ran out of paper. We had to go get more paper.

 

(5:45 – 6:07)

Really, we have so many documents outlining past behaviors of this person. And we want to be very clear, it’s not that this person, you know, had a history and then they’ve changed their ways, they’ve seen the light and become a better person now. This person is continuing the same behaviors that they were repeatedly arrested and charged and convicted of.

 

(6:08 – 6:21)

They actually currently have a warrant out for their arrest in another state. Unfortunately, the crime that they committed that they have a warrant for is not grand enough for that state to come to Maine to get them. Right.

 

(6:21 – 6:33)

So it’s not a he said, she said situation. You know, we’re keeping our ears, you know, to the Internet, our ears, you know, to the phone, anybody. I mean, we’ve had phone calls.

 

(6:33 – 6:40)

People call us and they’ve asked us, hey, you know, we’ve had these experiences. Is it this group? Yeah, it is. It’s this group.

 

(6:40 – 6:50)

It’s this leader. Yes, you’re exactly right. I mean, we don’t have to tell them, right, Tony? They come to us and say, is it this group? We have had, our clients have had this experience with this person leading this group.

 

(6:50 – 7:05)

Is this the group? Yeah, that’s correct. And we have, as I said, we have several interviews from other paranormal teams and organizations throughout New England who have had very similar experiences to each other. So it’s not just us making it up.

 

(7:05 – 7:14)

It’s people in the public, people who are doing what we’re trying to do, which is help people in need. Right. Experiencing these same issues.

 

(7:14 – 7:31)

Right. And the thing that gets me is, the thing that gets me is that they are shielding themselves or trying to. I don’t follow them around, but I have been told from other groups that they’re like, they’re promoting themselves as para-unity, para-unity, para-unity.

 

(7:32 – 7:44)

And I’m thinking, of all of the things to hide behind, that’s probably one of the things that, it’s a catchphrase. People don’t mess with para-unity. I don’t believe in para-unity.

 

(7:44 – 7:54)

Why? Because this group is hiding behind para-unity and other people are protecting them. They have no idea who they’re protecting. They don’t understand.

 

(7:54 – 8:03)

What they think is para-unity is everybody gets along, everybody loves each other, everybody’s going for the same thing, right? Well, yeah, some people are going for the same thing. Not everybody. Not everybody.

 

(8:03 – 8:21)

And, I mean, they’re just the last, she is the last person you want roaming in your house when you’re not there. And I think that this interview here is going to highlight that point and a couple of others. What do you think, Tony? Yeah, I completely agree.

 

(8:21 – 8:49)

This is, in particular, one of those locations where, you know, the client had an interaction with this team and it was not a pleasant interaction, and, you know, this team came in and was very disrespectful to the location and something was missing at the end of the night. It wasn’t recognized until a few days later, but it was something that the director of the team had shown a great interest in. So, yeah, no spoilers.

 

(8:49 – 8:59)

You’re right. So let’s kick it off. Let’s play the episode, the recorded segment, unless Erica or Teresa, do you have anything you want to add? Nope.

 

(9:00 – 9:04)

I think she said it. You said it very well. I agree, too.

 

(9:05 – 9:12)

All right, great. All right, so what I’m going to do is I’m going to mute your microphones. We’re just going to play the segment, so there’s no need to hang on the line if you don’t want to.

 

(9:12 – 9:14)

Save your minutes. Save your time. Save your ears.

 

(9:15 – 9:26)

And then in 29 minutes, or 28 minutes, actually, because it’s about 29 minutes long, so ring back in about a minute early, and we’ll jump back in and we’ll discuss what Erica has to say. Sound good? Sounds good. Yep.

 

(9:27 – 9:30)

Excellent. All right, guys, we’ll talk to you shortly. Okay.

 

(9:31 – 9:46)

All right, folks, so here we go. This is the segment that we recorded with Eric Casares, and he’s going to talk a little bit about his interactions or his client’s interactions. The client contacted him to have him come into a paranormal investigation, and he’s going to talk about what happened.

 

(9:47 – 9:53)

So without further ado, here’s Eric. So how are you doing tonight? Very good. Good.

 

(9:54 – 10:07)

How have things been going for you and your team down there? We are extremely busy, very busy, overloaded busy, if you want to call it that. I know the feeling. We’ve been getting investigation requests left and right.

 

(10:08 – 10:35)

All right, well, I just want to start a few ground rules here. What I want to try and do is just like our whole purpose for these shows and what we’re trying to do is just build awareness as to people should really know who they’re inviting into their home, who they’re starting to hang around with, and things like that. Maybe we can start with you can tell me a little bit about where you’re from and a little bit about your team and how you got started.

 

(10:35 – 11:04)

Well, our group name is Persona Paranormal Research, and we recently changed the name to Persona Paranormal Research. It was originally called Paranormal Society of North Attleboro, but we wanted to get away from really the town name, and we do a lot of research historically, so that’s why we decided to change that name to that research ending, if you will. Okay.

 

(11:04 – 11:40)

So we were established and founded in October of 2010, and we’re right now eight members, but we’re not a very large group. And we are searching out new investigators, and we recently came across another fellow investigator that’s involved with another group that may be switching to our group just because we’re more local to that person, which is great. So we’re going to see how that goes.

 

(11:40 – 12:17)

We have an investigation coming up this Friday, and we’re going to try that person on that investigation. We’ve been involved with all different kinds of investigations, all started with a little cemetery, as I think most investigators do, and we work from there and do a lot of residential. Now, as far as myself, I’ve had paranormal experiences probably since the age of five years old, and my sister is a professional astrologist, and that’s probably where I get it from.

 

(12:19 – 13:06)

And she’s, I think, taught me things over the years that have enhanced my abilities, if you will, just sensing, but I’m not going to call myself a psychic or I’m not a medium, but from time to time I definitely have those senses. And I think some people that are involved with paranormal groups certainly have that as well, but I will certainly never call myself a psychic. I’m a little skeptical of mediums and psychics, but we did recently work with Kelly Spangler out of Salem, Mass., and she actually helped us with a case and kind of blew me away a little bit, but she was able to tell us stuff that was incredible.

 

(13:07 – 13:16)

She wasn’t given the location of where we were going to investigate. She wasn’t given the homeowner’s name. She wasn’t given any information.

 

(13:17 – 14:00)

Now, we already had investigated this place a few times, and there was a case that was becoming spiritual, if you will, so we had to try to bring in somebody else to try to see if there was another avenue or if we were correct in what we were thinking, and some of what she had mentioned to us confirmed that, and so we actually brought it another step further and brought the father, Bob Bailey, into the investigation. Some people may have seen him on TV, so he’s very well known. In everything so far, knock on wood, it turned out pretty good.

 

(14:01 – 14:26)

That case lasted about a year. Now, was Bob Bailey able to corroborate a lot of the information that was given to you by the other sidekick? Well, he went in there for that one period to help us cleanse the home and liberate the home. Was he able to actually figure out whether or not a lot of those things were going on? Not that night he was in there, no.

 

(14:26 – 14:45)

All right, well, let’s talk a little bit about how you came to contact Main Ghost Hunters regarding some of the paranormal fraud that we’ve been advertising on Facebook and on our blog talk radio shows. All right, can you hear me a little better now? Oh, absolutely. Okay, good.

 

(14:46 – 15:22)

I’m just going to put this other microphone away. So yeah, so what I was saying is Main Ghost Hunters is very diligent and we advertise quite a bit about a certain team in New England and a certain member of a team in New England who we, based on our experiences, believes we’re misrepresenting ourselves and taking advantage of people in the paranormal community as well as people seeking help from the paranormal community. I just wanted to, in this radio show, talk a little bit about how you came to get in contact with us.

 

(15:22 – 15:47)

Was it one of our Facebook postings or a radio show that you heard? Yeah, I believe it was one of your Facebook postings on paranormal fraud, and I started reading up on it a little bit, and it just kind of clicked a little bit on what happened with one of our cases. That’s when I got in touch with you in regard to that. And so the two together, it seemed like it was the same group.

 

(15:47 – 16:45)

So I did contact the homeowners thereafter, and I spoke with them and asked them who that particular group was and also asked them who the lead person was of that group, and they gave out that certain name and that certain group name, and it sounds exactly like the same group that was mentioned on one of your broadcasts. Now, why did this person, if these people had already had an investigation in their location, why did they reach out to contact you? Well, what happened was, this probably goes back a year, almost about the same time I was talking about the other case, but they had contacted us, and for some reason, they went with this other group. Now, this other group had tied to a group in Rhode Island as well.

 

(16:45 – 17:10)

Apparently, they’re doing a lot of networking. So I don’t know if it was exactly the homeowner that knew somebody that knew somebody, but they decided to go with that group for some reason, and that particular group went in, and it was two groups that went in, actually. And I don’t think the group out of Rhode Island even knows what’s going on, to be honest with you.

 

(17:10 – 17:21)

But the two groups went in. Unfortunately, the homeowner said they were very unprofessional. They left a mess.

 

(17:22 – 17:30)

They were playing video games during the investigation on the computer. They weren’t focused in on the investigation. I just wanted to interject.

 

(17:30 – 17:52)

So they were playing video games on the client’s computer? No, not on the… No. They were… Apparently, they had set up a detached garage, as we did as well, and the investigators, rather than focusing in on… I don’t know what they had set up. I don’t know if they had a DVR set up.

 

(17:53 – 18:07)

Apparently, they did, according to the homeowners, but why were they playing video games on that computer? Maybe they had set that up. I’m not sure. They weren’t focused in on the investigation, according to what the homeowners were telling us.

 

(18:07 – 18:21)

And they were not… The homeowners were not allowed to participate in the investigation. And that’s where that concerned me, because we always allow homeowners to participate. It’s their house.

 

(18:21 – 18:27)

We’re going into their house. They don’t know us, so… Absolutely. You know, there’s a trust factor there.

 

(18:28 – 18:43)

Now, if that was me, as a homeowner, yeah, I don’t think I want people coming into my home without me being there and watching what they’re doing. Right. But for them to do that was surprising, but they allowed it to happen.

 

(18:44 – 18:59)

They regret it now, but they had activity, and several months went by. They weren’t getting any information from them. They finally contacted us, and they wanted to know what was going on in their home.

 

(18:59 – 19:09)

And they really didn’t tell us too much about the other group. They just said, we had another group come in, and they really haven’t done anything for us. They haven’t shown us any evidence.

 

(19:09 – 19:25)

They say they have evidence, but they haven’t done anything. So they asked us to go in and redo the whole thing and go in and help them out, which we did. We set it up pretty quickly, I think, from what I remember, within a couple of weeks anyway.

 

(19:26 – 19:36)

Great people, great, great people. They treated us well, and we did the same right back to them, and we also tried to educate them as well. Okay.

 

(19:37 – 19:55)

But what we later found out regarding the fraudulent activities is that the group apparently took something of theirs, which they were totally unaware of. They didn’t realize this until after the fact. Okay.

 

(19:56 – 19:59)

I want to ask a few questions. We’ll get into that in just a minute. I want to ask a few more questions.

 

(19:59 – 20:18)

So some of the homeowners were not allowed to participate in the investigation. Did they actually ask the homeowners to vacate the home while they did the investigation? They didn’t ask them to vacate the home. They just asked them to stay in the detached garage with the rest of the group that has the base camp, if you want to call it that.

 

(20:18 – 20:35)

And then two or three would enter the home and do whatever they were doing in the home, but the homeowners were told they can’t go in while they were investigating. Okay. So was it just a husband and wife? Yes, it was a husband and wife.

 

(20:35 – 20:59)

All right. So they were asked to stay in the detached garage where this team or these teams had set up their home base, if you will, and while the clients are out there in the garage, the team is playing video games on their computers. Yes, basically a group of people in the garage and another two or three in the home supposedly investigating.

 

(20:59 – 21:31)

All right. How many people did they bring altogether to the investigation? Do you know? I believe it was approximately nine or ten. They thought there were too many of them, and it’s true because it is a small home, and every time we actually interview a client, we take a look at the size and we make a determination on how many people we bring in, and for this size home, no more than four or five in my opinion.

 

(21:31 – 21:40)

All right. So we actually had brought in five, I believe, on the first investigation ourselves. Okay.

 

(21:41 – 22:03)

Now, what were some of the initial reports of activity there? Typical knocks and bangs, footsteps, hearing voices, and seeing apparitions, black shadows, the typical paranormal stuff that you hear about all the time. Yes. Nothing crazy, nothing demonic or anything like that.

 

(22:04 – 22:33)

So at the point in time when your client contacted this other team or these other teams to come in and do the investigation, were they afraid of any of the activity? Were they concerned for their well-being or their health in any way? The homeowners definitely, they’ve never experienced before, so they were concerned. They were wondering. They were somewhat nervous about what was going on, and they wanted answers, and they also possibly wanted whatever was there out.

 

(22:34 – 22:45)

Some people tend to think that paranormal activity is bad. Well, not all paranormal activity is bad. It’s just something that lingers and is residual.

 

(22:46 – 22:50)

So they just wanted answers. They didn’t know what was going on. Yeah.

 

(22:52 – 23:32)

Now, you mentioned that they spent one evening there, two different teams spent one evening there doing an investigation, and during the investigation, the homeowners were not allowed in their own home, and they would take teams of two or three people and go into the house and switch off to conduct their investigations. When the team left, did they give your clients any indication as to when they would be back in touch with them or any indication as to what they had found when they were there? From what I remember the homeowners telling me is that they will get back to them, and that’s all they said. So they didn’t share any information with them at all before they left? It was just like, okay, we’re done, we’re going to go home, and we’ll be in touch with you? Correct.

 

(23:33 – 23:47)

Okay. Now, you had mentioned that this client had discovered something had gone missing from their home a few days or after a period of time at a lapse. They recognized that something was missing.

 

(23:47 – 24:04)

Right. And it was an older antique item, and they don’t even know what the value is of this, but it was still something that was left from the previous homeowner. And, you know, apparently the other group thought it had some value.

 

(24:04 – 24:14)

They took it. That’s my opinion. But the homeowner found out later, and they questioned the group about it, and they said, you know, we’re missing this item.

 

(24:14 – 24:29)

And they said, oh, yeah, well, we took that item because we felt it had something to do with the case, so we need to take it. And the homeowners asked for it back, and, of course, to this day, they have not received it back. And so that definitely upsets them quite a bit.

 

(24:29 – 24:39)

Yeah. Now, you mentioned it as an old antique. Can you disclose what the item was? I can’t recall actually myself what it was.

 

(24:39 – 25:14)

I don’t know if it really did have any significance to it, but it was just because the thought was it was theirs, and they took it from their home. Eventually, the homeowners had pressed the group so much for evidence because the group had said they had evidence. Finally, the group had sent some pictures by e-mail to them, and we were already in contact with the homeowners, and we were already prepared to go in and investigate.

 

(25:14 – 25:31)

And the wife actually borrowed me some of the pictures. I took a look at some of these pictures, and I was amazed to see what I saw. In my opinion, it was nothing but Photoshopped junk.

 

(25:35 – 25:54)

So it’s not just that the photos were bad judgment of paranormal evidence. It’s that the photos looked like they had actually been doctored to make it look like they had activity in them? Absolutely. And I did show it to the rest of the group, our group, and got their opinions.

 

(25:54 – 26:29)

I think every single one of our group members that don’t even have some background in photography, but knew that it was Photoshopped, it basically looked like somebody took a black marker to a picture. But with the Photoshopping editor and everything that you can do, and put a smoky look into one of the pictures or two of the pictures, it was unbelievable. I just couldn’t believe that they did that.

 

(26:31 – 26:45)

Now there were two teams that came to the house, two separate teams. One was from the main area, and the other one was from the Rhode Island area. Which team was your client most in contact with? The main group.

 

(26:46 – 26:56)

So it was the main group who had scheduled the appointment, came down and conducted the investigation as far as your client was concerned. So they were kind of running the show. Correct.

 

(26:57 – 27:13)

And they left, said they would get back in touch with your client, and never did. And so your client was in contact with the main group, and they kept insisting on getting some sort of evidence or something from what they had done when they were there doing the investigation. Right, exactly.

 

(27:14 – 27:22)

And the main group forwarded on these photos to your client? Yes. All right. Via email.

 

(27:23 – 27:35)

Via email, okay. Now was your client familiar with the situation that there were two separate teams, and that one was from the local area and one was not? Yes. Now whether or not they knew that right in the beginning, I don’t know.

 

(27:35 – 27:51)

I never actually asked them that. But they actually told me the other group’s name, the second group’s name. Of course, I won’t release that name either because, you know, that group may have just been involved because it was an investigation and they were asked to come in.

 

(27:51 – 28:12)

I’m not sure why. But like I said, that main group, of course, does a lot of networking and is just trying to add more and more groups to their name, if you will, and try to get larger and larger. And it’s just unbelievable what they’re doing.

 

(28:13 – 28:38)

Yeah. Now, speaking of that, was this team considered one of their branch teams or their branch members? Because that’s the way they advertise it. So you’re right, they go into these different areas or they write someone a Facebook mail and say, hey, do you want to be a branch member of our organization? And if they say yes, then they add them to their website and all of a sudden they have a team in this state and this town.

 

(28:39 – 28:50)

So do you know if they were ever identified on this team’s website as a branch? Yes, they were. I actually identified it myself. I confirmed it.

 

(28:50 – 28:58)

I went and checked it out, and yes, it was. Okay. And do you know if they still are? I have not looked as of late.

 

(28:59 – 29:24)

I’m going to guess that they are. All right. So you had also, when we talked earlier, when we talked before, you had mentioned that during the investigation, the topic of this item that disappeared or went missing was actually raised by the person we have a concern for or about while they were there at the location.

 

(29:27 – 29:53)

Yes, yes, yes. So the topic was raised that this item may be causing some of the activity in the home and that they actually asked if they could take it. Is that correct? Well, from what I remember, they took it automatically without their knowledge, and later when the homeowner had talked to them over the phone, that’s when they admit they took it.

 

(29:53 – 30:11)

Okay. And that, yes, that was causing some paranormal activity, and that’s the reason why they need to take it with them. So your client contacted the people that she thought was in charge of the investigation that was conducted at their home.

 

(30:12 – 30:49)

Yes, I think according to what I was told, the homeowners were stunned that they actually, what do you mean, why did you take it? What’s the reason for you taking it? All right. And they didn’t, did they offer to send it back or the client asked for it and they still have not received it? Yes, basically our clients asked if they could send it back, and that group said they would, and to this day they have not received it. And they asked them several times, we want it back, we want it back, and they never sent it back.

 

(30:50 – 31:14)

And while they were looking for getting the evidence, this had gone on beyond three months at this point where they didn’t receive any evidence from them, or any kind of contact, they would ignore their phone calls. They were getting extremely rude to them. The group was getting extremely rude to the homeowners on the phone, and eventually they weren’t even taking their phone calls.

 

(31:16 – 31:40)

All right. So let’s focus a little bit on the behavior of the item disappearing. We actually, not long before you contacted us with your story of your interactions with this client and this client’s interactions with this paranormal team, we actually got a call from another team, and I want to say it’s a similar situation.

 

(31:40 – 31:58)

It was a similar situation. This team had gone into this location and conducted an investigation, and they did what they do, and then they left. And a few days later, the owner of the location discovered something was missing.

 

(32:00 – 32:17)

And this, again, was an item that probably had some significant value, given the location, and was antique and was pertinent to the location. It was part of the ambience and part of the location. It should have been there.

 

(32:17 – 32:24)

It should have stayed there. It had a lot of meaning to this location. It’s something that you would know if it’s misplaced.

 

(32:25 – 32:31)

It should be on a shelf or it should be in a certain location. You know it’s there. Right.

 

(32:33 – 32:42)

Right. Excuse me. This team also claims to have liability insurance and be bonded and insured.

 

(32:42 – 32:52)

So if they did break something in someone’s home, their insurance should be able to pay for that. Well, okay. Now I wasn’t aware they actually had insurance.

 

(32:53 – 33:00)

Right on the front page of their website, they claim to be bonded and insured. Oh, really? Yes. Yeah.

 

(33:01 – 33:04)

Our group is not. We’re not insured. We’re not bonded.

 

(33:04 – 33:12)

But we have a waiver that states that right on the waiver that we are not insured. We’re not bonded. Yeah.

 

(33:15 – 33:24)

But it’s difficult. You know, when you’re a local group like this, where do you come up with the money? Yeah. No, I agree.

 

(33:25 – 33:42)

I mean, insurance is expensive for anybody. I mean, home insurance, the type of work that we do, insurance for going into people’s homes or historical collections or being around antiques and other people’s belongings, insurance for that is not cheap. Right.

 

(33:42 – 34:04)

Exactly. Yeah. Now let’s talk about how you have dealt with the client and this instance with this team and how you have communicated with them regarding your knowledge of what they do and how they’ve conducted themselves.

 

(34:05 – 34:20)

Well, as far as the homeowner, they’re very busy people, and they have activity. I will have to admit they have activity. And so we just comfort them with that part of it.

 

(34:25 – 34:46)

Now, you know, we’re kind of focused on our kind of hometown area as mingle centers. You know, we’re really protective of our community. We’re really protective of the people that we work with, both paranormal investigation teams for events and investigations as well as our past clients and potential clients for the public.

 

(34:47 – 35:19)

Can you speak a little bit about, you know, things like what we have experienced here with this team and individual that may have occurred in areas around you and how that may have impacted, you know, the public’s view on paranormal investigation teams in general doing paranormal work in the public? I’m sorry. Can you repeat some of that because you broke up again? Okay, sure. We’ll start over again.

 

(35:19 – 35:40)

As mingle centers, we’re pretty focused on our local area, right? We’re very protective of our communities. We’re very protective of our, you know, the people that we partner with or work with on a regular basis. We’re also very protective of our clients who have asked us for help and trusted that we will do the right thing when we come into their home.

 

(35:40 – 36:37)

So we’re very vocal about, you know, certain individuals in our area who we don’t think have that same focus. And are you – have there been any incidents similar to what we have shared with this individual in your local area? And if so, can you speak a little bit about how that may have impacted, you know, the general public’s perception of paranormal teams or paranormal investigation teams in general as well as psychics and, you know, how they conduct themselves? Well, you know, we’ve been fortunate, I guess, to say that we haven’t run into any issues with any other paranormal groups in this area and hope we don’t run into any issues. We have worked with the Taunton Paranormal Group, which they’re also involved with Father Bob Bailey as well.

 

(36:38 – 36:48)

And, you know, we work great together and we respect each other. They helped us out with the Humlin case. And again, Kelly Spangler helped us out with that as well.

 

(36:49 – 37:03)

We’ve never had any issues with any other groups. We will actually be going up to your neck of the woods at the end of the month with the place that you actually investigated. It’s actually a friend of mine.

 

(37:03 – 37:17)

I think I had mentioned this to you as well. And it’s somewhat a little bit of a little retreat, if you want to call it that, slash investigation. So we’re going to make a weekend thing out of it.

 

(37:17 – 37:42)

But I think we try to be cautious of who we get involved with and try to listen to certain issues that are out there and be forward with everybody in what we do and how we handle things. That’s a good approach. So if you’re planning to come up here in Maine, maybe you should give us a, you know, if you want to stop by or get together and have some coffee or something at some point while you’re here.

 

(37:42 – 37:49)

That would be great. Absolutely. Definitely once we get off, you know, we can definitely discuss that.

 

(37:49 – 37:51)

That would be great. Awesome. All right.

 

(37:51 – 38:15)

Well, thank you, Eric, for joining us this evening and being willing to speak on the air about, you know, your experiences with this individual and how it’s impacted your client. We think that this will be valuable for people who will hear this broadcast. And like I said, we just want to help build awareness and keep our fellow members of the paranormal community aware of what’s going on and keep themselves safe.

 

(38:15 – 38:47)

And if you would, just go ahead and give a shout-out for your website and any contact information you want to share for your local area, how people can get in touch with you and ask for your help. Well, thanks, Tony. And our website is persona-paranormal, which is psona-paranormal.com. And we can also be contacted through our email, which is persona-paranormal at gmail.com. And, again, that’s psona.

 

(38:49 – 39:00)

And we can also be reached at persona at comcast.net. Excellent. All right, good. Well, again, thank you very much, Eric, and we look forward to speaking to you again.

 

(39:00 – 39:04)

And hopefully we’ll get a chance to catch up while you’re up here in Maine. All right. Very good.

 

(39:04 – 39:06)

Thank you for having me. All right. Thanks.

 

(39:06 – 39:13)

You have a good night. Wow. I mean, I really can’t say anything else but wow.

 

(39:13 – 39:49)

You know, I’ve spoken with Eric several times prior to the interview, after the interview, during the interview, and it still just amazes me that this person has the audacity to present herself in the manner that she does and then conduct herself in the manner that she does when she gets into these private personal homes and public historic locations. We’re going to play a couple commercials real quick, and then we’re going to come back. We’re going to bring the rest of the team back in, and we’re going to talk about Eric’s interview, and we’re going to talk a little bit about, you know, other efforts we’re doing and just paranormal fraud in general.

 

(39:49 – 40:05)

So we’ll be right back. The Maine Ghost Hunters media team is looking for new and interesting stories to share. If you’re in the local New England area and you’d like to share your story in person, we may be interested in interviewing you for a possible showcase piece on our media team website.

 

(40:06 – 41:11)

Contact Maine Ghost Hunters by phone at 207-504-6224 or send email to MaineGhostHunters at MaineGhostHunters.org. Got ghosts? Maybe we can help. Call the MGH Ghost Phone at 207-504-6224 or send email to MaineGhostHunters at MaineGhostHunters.org. Would you like to know what it’s like to be a Maine Ghost Hunter? See us live and in action on our YouTube video channel located at www.youtube.com slash MaineGhostHunters. Okay, and welcome back to Maine Ghost Hunters Presents Zero Lux Radio.

 

(41:12 – 41:37)

Again, tonight is Wednesday, August 15th, and we are continuing on with our paranormal fraud series. We just finished up a prerecorded interview with Eric Caceres, and we’re about to bring in Cat, John, Teresa, and Eric. And we’re just going to have a little discussion with Eric and his enlightenment that he gave us during that interview as well as maybe some of the other information that you may have heard or may not have heard in some of our past interviews.

 

(41:37 – 41:41)

So we’ll start with Cat. Hello. Hello.

 

(41:42 – 41:57)

Hi, Tony, you’re occasionally really sputtering pretty significantly. All right, well, maybe I’ll slow down my speech and see if that helps. I’m going to bring in Teresa.

 

(41:58 – 42:04)

Hey, Teresa, welcome back. Hello. All right, and Erica.

 

(42:04 – 42:10)

Erica, are you there? I’m still here. Okay, great. And John, I don’t know if John wants to talk to us.

 

(42:10 – 42:14)

I think he’s walking around Home Depot still. No, he’s home. Okay, great.

 

(42:14 – 42:18)

John, you there? Yeah, I’m here. All right, great. So the gang’s all here.

 

(42:19 – 42:39)

Again, welcome back, everybody. And, you know, like I said, there’s nothing else I can really say about that interview. But, wow, just every time I think about what this person does, how she presents herself, and … Well, Tony, you brought up a good point, and I’d really like to capitalize on it before I forget, because you know I forget really quickly.

 

(42:40 – 42:56)

You made a point earlier, right before the commercial, about how she does these things, how she does present herself. And you and I both know that she presents herself in a very charismatic, very likable kind of way. I mean, she really is.

 

(42:56 – 43:15)

She’s got this whole air about her. I mean, I thought she was like a really nice person. And the fact of the matter is that I would not be taken by or be friends with a toothless hag with bad manners, you know, bad personal hygiene.

 

(43:15 – 43:24)

I wouldn’t be attracted to that type of person as a friend. Do you know what I mean? Absolutely, yes. Okay, so clients aren’t going to be taken by people who look like crooks.

 

(43:25 – 43:36)

They’re going to be taken by people who are extremely charismatic, very nice, very convincing. I’m going to help you. I’m going to do whatever I can to stay out in your garage, to make sure you don’t come in, you don’t want to be in here.

 

(43:36 – 43:45)

It’s not a good place to be. And she’s in there doing whatever she’s doing. And they walked off with whatever that piece of whatever that was that they took.

 

(43:46 – 44:02)

You know, and I’m sure it’s confidential between Eric and his client. We didn’t press the matter. But I do want to reiterate that when you got off the phone with him the first time, you made it clear that she was attracted to whatever that was.

 

(44:02 – 44:12)

And she asked about it repeatedly, and they told her no. She kept telling them, that’s the root of your problem, let me take it, and your problems are solved. And they were like, no, no.

 

(44:12 – 44:17)

And she addressed it a couple times. All right. They turned their back.

 

(44:17 – 44:25)

They trusted her and her team, and when the team left, that item was gone. It’s despicable. It is despicable.

 

(44:25 – 44:39)

And it’s the fact that, like you said, she’s very charismatic. She’s very, very likable the way she presents herself until you get to know who she really is. And she’s just very kind of domineering in those types of situations.

 

(44:39 – 44:44)

And she just kind of swoops right in. And she’s here to rescue you. She’s here to save you.

 

(44:44 – 44:57)

She’s here to provide you with the protection and healing that you need because she’s this grand psychic. And people who are in need, they are drawn to that. I mean, that’s what they want.

 

(44:57 – 45:05)

They want someone to come in and help them and take care of them and protect them and make them feel better and take care of all of their problems. Yeah. I mean, all that’s important.

 

(45:05 – 45:23)

But one of the most important things, especially if you think you have something in your house that you can’t see and you can’t hear and you don’t know is there until it makes itself known, you want somebody in your house who knows more than you do. You want somebody who says they can see those things. They can hear those things.

 

(45:23 – 45:34)

You need them. That’s who she is. Because she’s a very prolific, you know, what were we told, 14th generation psychic? Yeah.

 

(45:34 – 45:46)

Really, 14th generation, straight down the line? That’s what she told me. That’s what she wrote in her bio that we had up on our website for the entire time that she was with us. Isn’t it? It is.

 

(45:47 – 46:08)

Yep. So she had a lot of grandiose claims and a lot of delusions as to who she was and where she came from. And as in being a 14th generation psychic, it may not sound like a very significant deception, but it’s just one of the many things that we learned to be a lie as we found out who this person really was.

 

(46:09 – 46:26)

Well, when you consider that the person has an extensive criminal history of theft by deception, those are the charges that she was found guilty of, it is a big deal. Because she’s stealing from people by deceiving them. Yes.

 

(46:27 – 46:43)

And she’s just using a different tool to do that. So, I mean, you know, and I know Teresa is just, I mean, she was talking about her, you know, just being, like, beyond upset to hear. Because this is the first time that our team has heard that this team was in a client’s house and they stole something.

 

(46:44 – 46:49)

Oh, that’s right. They weren’t on that interview, were they? No, they weren’t. Ask Teresa how she feels about it.

 

(46:50 – 47:15)

Teresa, how do you feel about that? You know, in my job, you know, my regular everyday job, I’m in people’s houses every day because, you know, I work with families. And I couldn’t imagine violating the trust that these people have by stealing stuff out of their house. It just blows my mind.

 

(47:17 – 47:28)

Yeah, it’s just amazing. What’s amazing to us is that she had the audacity to come back to this area after she left. She actually left Maine at one point in time and went to the West Coast.

 

(47:29 – 47:38)

It’s just amazing that she had the audacity to come back into our community and take up where she left off and continue these behaviors. And this is the result. Yeah.

 

(47:39 – 48:01)

And that, you know, I mean, and we’re all, I think something that upsets me, too, is that, you know, we’re all out there and we’re all striving, you know, to make this a credible field. And to make, you know, what we do and what we believe in and that, you know, mean something. And then you have people who go and do stuff like that and just take all that credibility away.

 

(48:02 – 48:09)

No kidding. It’s hard for you to get to do anything, to go anywhere, you know. That’s the truth.

 

(48:09 – 48:33)

And what kind of misunderstanding could there be? I mean, you know, Eric said, well, the client noticed that the thing was gone and it’s the very thing that she asked about and was like, okay, well, where’s this thing? Let’s call and find out, first of all, are you going to bring evidence for it? Yes, we are. Okay, where’s the thing? Did you take that after we told you not to? Yeah, we did. It really felt strongly that we had to take it.

 

(48:34 – 48:43)

Well, we asked you not to take it. Can we have it back? Yeah, well, I guess, yeah, you can have it back. How many times did they ask, Tony? More than they should have.

 

(48:43 – 48:50)

I mean, asking once is more than enough, but I think it was several times. I don’t think Eric gave us an actual count, but it was several times. They’ve called.

 

(48:50 – 49:03)

They’ve left messages. They spoke with them, and it got to the point where they got, you know, this team got irritated with the client for calling them and continuing to ask them for this item back. Yeah, for the item that was there that they told them not to take.

 

(49:04 – 49:18)

I mean, they don’t even need a reason why they would need to, you know, why they should be asking for it. I mean, they just don’t need a reason to ask for it back. But he did say, what, three months later, and they still haven’t received, what, evidence over the thing back? Right.

 

(49:18 – 49:29)

And they’ve never seen the item again. Yep. I do not know what kind of explanation could go down that would make that acceptable, still, that they took it in the first place.

 

(49:29 – 49:32)

They could return it today. It wouldn’t matter. They took it.

 

(49:33 – 49:39)

She took it. You know, we could put this live, and tomorrow they could return it. It wouldn’t matter.

 

(49:39 – 49:45)

You walked out of a client’s house with a client’s possession. You stole. That’s your character.

 

(49:46 – 49:50)

Exactly. Yeah. Wait, wait, wait.

 

(49:51 – 50:05)

I’m going to roll one second. Does it not tick you guys off that they were up for a humanitarian of the year award for these New England awards that went down a few months ago? Humanitarian. That means giving.

 

(50:07 – 50:22)

They’re not in a client’s home stealing, and they’re up for an award for giving to the community, and they’re under the guise of paranormal unity. Does that not tick anyone else off? Oh, completely. Can you imagine if they would have won that award? They’re not stealing.

 

(50:24 – 50:28)

Yeah, Tony. Yeah. Calm down.

 

(50:28 – 50:30)

Deep breath. Deep breath. Yeah, calm down.

 

(50:30 – 50:41)

Have a glass of water. No, I completely agree, but what’s more disturbing is this is not an isolated incident. This is not a one-time occurrence.

 

(50:42 – 50:53)

No, we have other shows, don’t we? Yes, we have lots of other shows. This is repeated, continuous behavior, and her behavior is not just impacting the clients that she’s going to. It’s not just impacting her team members.

 

(50:53 – 51:16)

It’s impacting other teams because her behaviors in certain public locations have now impacted the accessibility of those locations to other teams because of things that she has done and things that have gone missing at those locations. Yeah, her team leadership has trickled down, and her entire team has. Whoever was there, we don’t know.

 

(51:17 – 51:23)

We just know that they were there. Their behaviors under her leadership because she was there. She was a contact.

 

(51:23 – 51:51)

She was there, and whatever it is that went down was negative enough that it has impacted everybody in the paranormal community. It has literally ruined at least one location, one prime location. Was that not a juicy location? It was an awesome location, and we were actually invited to go there and participate in a paranormal investigation by people who are, you know, are very close with the management of that location.

 

(51:52 – 52:17)

But in our interview with this other paranormal team who was familiar with the incident, they let us know under no uncertain terms that the way that those paranormal investigations are operated now are completely different. They’re supervised now when they used to not be supervised. There is a huge several hundred dollar security deposit people need to pay in order to get access to that location.

 

(52:18 – 52:24)

It’s almost an obstacle to the point where normal teams would not be able to pay it. You know that. We all know that.

 

(52:24 – 52:48)

Because several hundred dollars, I mean, that’s like, who has that kind of money? Exactly. I mean, it’s just ridiculous. So, like I said, it’s to the point where it’s restrictive, and, you know, people who are trying to get ahead in this field, people who are trying to learn their way in this field genuinely will no longer be able to participate in that and take advantage of that location.

 

(52:49 – 52:59)

Sure. I have a question. Now, I know the person that you’re talking about, obviously.

 

(53:03 – 53:27)

She’s got a record in other states. Does she actually have a criminal record in Maine now? Well, under the aliases that we know her to use when she’s in Maine, we have not been able to find anything. But that doesn’t mean that one of her other aliases that we are not familiar with, you know, it doesn’t mean she doesn’t have a record under those names.

 

(53:27 – 53:38)

Yeah, I mean, it’s sad to say that she literally has so many aliases. I mean, how many names did we come up with? It was around ten. Ten different names.

 

(53:39 – 53:48)

I couldn’t even believe. There were two names that she used that I just couldn’t even believe. I’m like, are you kidding me? This doesn’t even, I mean, oh, my God.

 

(53:49 – 54:12)

I mean, we have no idea how many names she’s using. So, basically, she’s obviously still pretending to be other people, and she has this criminal record, but nobody’s able to find her, and she still gets this humanitarian award. It’s not that nobody’s able to find her.

 

(54:12 – 54:18)

She has a criminal history. She has convictions. She’s been charged, convicted, not paid fines.

 

(54:19 – 54:26)

She has outstanding fines that she didn’t pay, and some of the courts just said we’re done. We’re tired. We’re not going to go after this anymore.

 

(54:27 – 55:00)

But there is a state. There’s at least one county in another state where actually my investigation into her, because of my querying them and trying to find out more information about them, they actually reissued a warrant that they had recalled because she had unpaid fines, and she didn’t complete the terms of her sentencing, and so they issued a warrant for her arrest. And when she wasn’t around to arrest, the offense that she was convicted of and charged with was a misdemeanor, so they won’t go out of the state for that.

 

(55:01 – 55:11)

So, at least she goes back to the state where the arrest warrant is. They will arrest her, but they won’t come here to get her. They won’t come here to arrest her.

 

(55:11 – 55:29)

They know where she is because they reissued that warrant, and they found out where she was, and they contacted her, and she made arrangements. She made an arrangement, lied to the judge, said she’d make payments on these fines, and yada, yada, yada, just pull away the warrant. He did that.

 

(55:30 – 55:40)

She sent along like $20 in her letter to the judge. The judge did that, but he said that if you don’t continue with this payment arrangement, we’re going to issue the warrant again. Well, sure enough, she didn’t pay any more payments.

 

(55:41 – 55:53)

That was last year. No, that was, what, two years ago? That was over, yeah, that was like two years ago, and that warrant still hasn’t been paid, and it’s not, you could have paid that within two years. You can find it.

 

(55:53 – 56:03)

Anybody can find it online. That’s incredible. Yeah, the truth is anyone can go to those two, at least two of the states.

 

(56:03 – 56:10)

They go right online and find her criminal history right there, right online. It’s all readily available. It’s all public.

 

(56:10 – 56:13)

It’s not, you know, confidential. It’s all right there. Okay.

 

(56:14 – 56:28)

So basically these other states don’t really have enough resources to be able to go and —- No, no, no. It’s not that they don’t have the resources. They have to follow certain rules, and the rules say, you know, we’re not going to spend money and time and resources.

 

(56:28 – 56:40)

They’re just not going to do that because the charge is not worth what it would cost them to go get it. Right. It’s criminal, but it’s under a certain, so it’s like it’s non-extraditable basically.

 

(56:40 – 56:51)

They won’t come after you. But if you’re there, and we were there, remember that, Tony? Oh, yeah, we were there, and boy, it seemed like she was having a cow. We couldn’t figure out why.

 

(56:51 – 57:10)

Why was she acting so weird? We both thought she was acting strange the whole time. It was weird. We were there for, like, what, two days? She was acting so weird, and we’re like, what? And then, like, this all went down, and we’re like, oh, because you were in the state where they would arrest you if they pulled you over and found out who you were.

 

(57:10 – 57:15)

Well, we didn’t know that. Exactly. Yep.

 

(57:15 – 57:32)

So we’ve had some interesting experiences. We actually did quite a bit of documentation with all the things that we encountered while working with her and having her as part of our organization as well as after that, and it’s just amazing. I mean, a person could write a book.

 

(57:32 – 57:42)

There’s actually a good movie out there that’s a lot like our experiences with her, but be careful who you talk to if you’ve never met them before. You know, you’re online. It’s like that.

 

(57:43 – 58:08)

Yeah. So is John online still? Yep, I’m here. Yeah, so what do you think about this stealing incident? I think somebody needs to – I can’t believe, you know, some of the homeowners haven’t pressed charges against their – I don’t know if they’re afraid to or what the deal is.

 

(58:08 – 58:14)

I mean, if someone came into my house and took something, I wouldn’t be asking them to bring it back. I’d be calling the police. Yeah.

 

(58:15 – 58:37)

Yeah, but let’s think about the mentality of the clients, and I know we discussed that in the chat room, and the last thing I would want, especially for her or anybody in her camp who believes her, because she’s a very believable person. I believed her for the longest time, is for her to say, yeah, that’s because it didn’t happen. I didn’t steal, because if I would have stolen, I’d be in jail right now.

 

(58:38 – 59:01)

The truth of the matter is when we go into private client homes, those clients, and like I said in the chat room, the older they are, the more likely they are to feel that they cannot call the police and say, I had ghost hunters in my house and they stole from me. I mean, I would feel like the cause would just look at me and say, well, what did you think they were going to do? They’re ghost hunters. Ghosts don’t exist.

 

(59:01 – 59:14)

Are you stupid? You know, who wants to risk that type of alien – like, that type of, I don’t know, vintage. You know what I mean? Yeah. It’s hard for me to see it that way, just because I don’t have that mentality.

 

(59:15 – 59:32)

You know, for me, it would be – it would go down either one of two ways. Either I’d do something about it or I’d call the police on her. But, like, you know, I see what you’re saying about, you know, the client being afraid to call the police because of the reason they’re there, and they might get ridiculed for that.

 

(59:32 – 59:49)

And I understand that. But with so many different – I mean, how many stories have we gotten about her? I know. For me, personally, I just want to stay as far away from that group as possible.

 

(59:50 – 1:00:12)

Yeah, so do we. We don’t want to be associated with anybody who’s associated with her. And, I mean, when you really get into the head of the client, it’s like I said at the very beginning, clients think that because you’re offering your services and your time for free, you must be doing a good thing.

 

(1:00:14 – 1:00:28)

And if I turn around as a client and call the police and say they stole from me, people – you know, they’re probably going to think, well, people aren’t going to believe me because they’re doing this for free. Why would they steal? They’re doing a good thing for people. No one’s going to believe me.

 

(1:00:28 – 1:00:42)

It’s like accusing a good spirit of doing something bad to you. Who’s going to believe you? Yeah. Well, it ends up being a he said, she said thing, too, because they’ll claim, okay, it was here.

 

(1:00:43 – 1:01:00)

Can you prove you had it? Can you prove she left here with it? So it’s just – it turns into a big mess. And that’s why – go ahead, I’m sorry. I think the client is better enough to this point, and they’re trying to deal with whatever paranormal activity is occurring in their house and the stress of that.

 

(1:01:01 – 1:01:22)

And to add this on, they’re just glad that Eric is there and helping them out and trying to figure out what’s going on with them. Yeah. And that’s what makes it so easy for her to target paranormal in particular because of the vulnerable client base, basically, because these situations are going to repeat themselves.

 

(1:01:24 – 1:01:27)

These mentalities. Go ahead. Sorry.

 

(1:01:27 – 1:01:39)

Does her team, the people who were there with her that night, did they know? I have no idea. They were there. Did they know that that artifact was taken? I have no idea.

 

(1:01:40 – 1:01:47)

Like I said, I – Because if you know, they’re just as guilty. Yeah. We have no idea what our other team members know.

 

(1:01:47 – 1:02:01)

We’re not going to – we can’t say that we know what they know. Yeah, I know. I’m just curious, you know, because, you know, I mean, you know, when we’re doing an investigation, you’re not anywhere alone.

 

(1:02:02 – 1:02:08)

Yep. So if you picked up something and I was with you, I’d know that. Yeah.

 

(1:02:08 – 1:02:16)

Yep. You know? That’s a very good point, Teresa. I mean, we don’t go anywhere unless we go in a pair, period.

 

(1:02:17 – 1:02:21)

Right. I mean, there’s a couple of reasons for that. One is self-protection.

 

(1:02:21 – 1:02:35)

We want to make sure if something happens, there’s somebody else there. If something paranormal happens, God forbid it happens and there’s nobody else there to witness it. But thirdly, you know, it protects the homeowner just as much as anybody else because we’re all together.

 

(1:02:35 – 1:02:45)

And if something happens, well, you know, we’re all adults and we need to own up to it. And if not, someone’s going to be there to help you own up to it. Right.

 

(1:02:45 – 1:02:51)

Right. You know? I mean, it’s just, it just makes common sense. So I don’t know.

 

(1:02:52 – 1:03:15)

No, no. You know what, Teresa? It makes common sense to a group that thinks ahead and thinks about these things and takes these things seriously. Her group was in the garage babysitting and watching and supervising to make sure the clients could not go inside their house, and they sat out into the garage during the investigation and they played video games because that’s how they do business.

 

(1:03:17 – 1:03:20)

Hmm. Hmm. Is that right? Yeah.

 

(1:03:20 – 1:03:25)

I don’t have anything to say about that. I just don’t. Oh, my God.

 

(1:03:25 – 1:03:41)

I mean, I about fell out of my chair when Tony turned around and told me, yeah, they were out there playing video games. I’m like, what do you mean they were playing video games? Was everybody playing video games? Was it break time? No, they weren’t investigating, so they were just playing video games. Like, are you kidding me? Oh, my God.

 

(1:03:42 – 1:03:46)

Wow. Hold on just a few minutes, guys. We’re going to kick off a couple commercials.

 

(1:03:46 – 1:04:38)

We’ll be back. Learn more about Maine Ghost Hunters on the web at www.MaineGhostHunters.org. Zero Lux Radio is always looking for new and interesting guests. If you’d like to suggest a guest or would like to be a guest yourself, contact Maine Ghost Hunters by phone at 207-504-6224 or send email to MaineGhostHunters at MaineGhostHunters.org. Would you like to know what it’s like to be a Maine Ghost Hunter? See us live and in action on our YouTube video channel located at www.youtube.com slash MaineGhostHunters.

 

(1:04:44 – 1:05:08)

All right. Welcome back to Maine Ghost Hunters Presents Zero Lux Radio. Again, we’re talking this evening about paranormal fraud, continuing our series that we started some time ago and just making sure to build awareness in our community and other paranormal teams to help keep them out there and keep their clients safe and just be aware of who they’re working with.

 

(1:05:08 – 1:05:19)

We’ve been chatting with Cat, Teresa, Erica, and we’re going to bring them back on here in just a moment, and John. So, John, are you there with us? Yeah, I’m here, Tony. All right.

 

(1:05:19 – 1:05:23)

Welcome back, John. We’re going to bring the others in. Cat? I am here.

 

(1:05:24 – 1:05:30)

Hey, Tony, I have a question. Do we have any other callers on the line? Because I know we had a couple people that were going to call in. No callers yet.

 

(1:05:30 – 1:05:33)

Just us. Okay. And you keep breaking up, by the way.

 

(1:05:34 – 1:05:37)

Okay. Appreciate it. Okay.

 

(1:05:38 – 1:05:59)

So, folks, again, paranormal fraud. What’s it all about? How do we stop it? If you want to share some insights, if you have a story to share, you want to ask some questions of the hosts or the other commentators, please feel free to give a call on the guest line. It’s 646-595-3568.

 

(1:06:00 – 1:06:20)

Again, the guest call-in number is 646-595-3568. So… How do we stop it? Huh? Did you ask how we stop it? Yeah. How do we stop it? How do we stop it? You know what? I’m going to suggest just the first step.

 

(1:06:21 – 1:06:27)

The first step is, paranormal unity cannot be used as a tool. It cannot be used as a shield for everybody. That’s the first step.

 

(1:06:29 – 1:06:35)

That’s it. Let’s consider that we’re not in it for the same thing. Go ahead, John.

 

(1:06:37 – 1:06:54)

Maybe for other groups out there, can you tell them some of the things that you guys have put in place to help protect our group from people like that joining your group? You know, some of the steps we’ve taken. All right. Yeah.

 

(1:06:55 – 1:07:00)

That’s a good… That’s actually a good idea. Yeah. Tony, you go ahead and do that.

 

(1:07:02 – 1:07:03)

Because I’m… Sure. Sure. I’m hyper.

 

(1:07:04 – 1:07:11)

You’re a little over the edge there, Kat. I’m wound. Yeah.

 

(1:07:12 – 1:07:26)

So… It’s too bad some of our B-team members weren’t here, because they could let you know firsthand what we go through to make sure we don’t have this type of incident or this type of person on our team or involved with our clients again. We… Oh, John. And Teresa went through it, too.

 

(1:07:26 – 1:07:28)

Oh, that’s true. Yeah. So you guys know.

 

(1:07:29 – 1:07:44)

So we do… We got… We started a new project or a new sub-team of Mango Center called the B-team. And we brought several people on board. We actually started out with a large group, and then we kind of whittled down based on skill and time commitment and things like that.

 

(1:07:45 – 1:08:02)

And the B-team’s purpose was to help us review audio evidence that we got from investigations. So when we go into an investigation, we’re going to go through the audio evidence. And we bring in, you know, an awful lot of devices with us for recording audio, video, and what have you.

 

(1:08:02 – 1:08:14)

And it can become quite hard to manage and make sure we’re doing a thorough job reviewing that. And we’re all about making sure we do the best job we can for our clients. So we brought on the B-team members to help us with that audio review.

 

(1:08:15 – 1:08:20)

And Teresa, you’ve been through that training. Yes, I have. Erica, you’ve been through that training.

 

(1:08:22 – 1:08:37)

Correct. And you guys were actually both involved with Maine Ghost Hunters before we kicked off the B-team. And when we kicked off the B-team, we put you through the same steps and the same hurdles that we put the members through that we were not as familiar with.

 

(1:08:38 – 1:09:10)

And we required them to go to their local police department and get themselves fingerprinted and to bring us those fingerprint cards. And then we did a background check, a criminal state background check against these people to make sure we knew who they were, that they weren’t giving us bad identity information, bad names, false names, aliases, as they had no convictions for any crimes in the state of Maine. And these people, they don’t even go on to client locations.

 

(1:09:10 – 1:09:18)

Right. They’re just listening to the audio to review and find EVPs or any other anomalies and then report on that. That’s all they’re doing.

 

(1:09:18 – 1:09:25)

Right. They’re just listening to confidential information. All information that MGH collects is confidential.

 

(1:09:26 – 1:09:47)

They’re just listening to confidential information. So we’re very adamant and very vocal about our stance with making sure you know who you’re working with and making sure you know who you’re associating with. Because the old adage is true.

 

(1:09:47 – 1:10:15)

You’re guilty by association. If you’re working with this team, if you are hanging out with this team, if you’re putting together paranormal conferences and events with this team, then you’re just as guilty as they are. We are vocal enough about this topic that there should not be any paranormal teams in New England that do not know who we’re talking about and what we’re talking about.

 

(1:10:15 – 1:10:32)

And there should not be anybody who has not seen the evidence for themselves. That is the truth. That means our protocol between members and anybody associated with our group is very strict.

 

(1:10:33 – 1:10:52)

Written on the letter, the T, where we, you know, within our own group to make sure everything goes through the proper channels. You know, it’s not a, you know, hey, let’s get together and go investigate type thing. We make sure everything is done as professional as possible.

 

(1:10:53 – 1:11:03)

Everything goes through you two, Kat and Tony. And that’s the way it should be probably with a lot of teams. Right.

 

(1:11:04 – 1:11:30)

But it’s not a control thing as in we’re controlling our members. It’s the control of information in and out of main ghost hunters because the only one that loses in the end is the client. Because it’s not, it’s, huh? I agree with you and that’s why those protocols are there is to protect the client.

 

(1:11:30 – 1:11:44)

Right. Because it’s the, because the board gets out about a client, you know, it’s not, it’s not our lives that are disrupted. I mean, our lives are going to be disrupted because our clients, you know, if, if we care about our clients, we’re going to care if their information gets out, of course.

 

(1:11:45 – 1:11:54)

But in the end, it’s not our lives that are disrupted. It’s their lives that are disrupted. You know? Yeah.

 

(1:11:54 – 1:12:02)

I mean, and we know, we know firsthand that, you know, the destruction that this person can cause. It’s, it’s, it’s not something you want to deal with. It’s not something you want to go through.

 

(1:12:02 – 1:12:09)

It’s not something you want to experience. And you know, we just, we, we want you to be safe. We want you to be careful.

 

(1:12:09 – 1:12:26)

We want you to, we want you to enjoy your, you know, your time in the paranormal community and helping your clients. Right. It’s not something that we want anyone else’s clients to be subjected to, God forbid, victimized because of.

 

(1:12:27 – 1:12:38)

And as we will progress through this paranormal fraud series, we will all listen again. We’ll listen again. You’ll listen for the first time.

 

(1:12:38 – 1:13:00)

We’ll hear the stories of other victims because that’s what they are, because word is out and people weren’t listening, but they’re listening now. Yes, they are listening now. There are a lot of people that are taking and paying attention and noticing the subtle things that indicate the falsities that this person is perpetuating.

 

(1:13:02 – 1:13:15)

Yep. Yep. So, and if you, if you have not listened to some of our previous broadcasts, they’re all available here on blog talk to listen to, they’re all archived here and they’re also available through iTunes.

 

(1:13:15 – 1:13:31)

So you can, if you have iTunes, you can have an iPod or some other device that can sync the music or wave files or sound files from iTunes. You can download them free of charge from iTunes and sync them to your device or your computer and take them with you. You don’t even have to have an internet connection and just listen.

 

(1:13:32 – 1:13:47)

And actually, I’m sorry, Tony, actually we have, we have, we have two files. They say names, they say dates, they say everything. Anything that you need answered about this person and her group, go to our website.

 

(1:13:48 – 1:14:17)

They’re all on there and it’s www.MainGhostHunters.org slash media. Yeah, I’m sure that you’ll have, you’ll have some enlightening moments when you listen to those, to those broadcasts because these are first hand experiences of people who have been victimized by this person that we are talking about. Yup, including a woman who she actually, honestly, literally bankrupted, literally bankrupted.

 

(1:14:18 – 1:14:21)

And made homeless. Oh yeah, the woman was homeless. She lost everything.

 

(1:14:22 – 1:14:24)

It’s not just the same. She went bankrupt. She went homeless.

 

(1:14:24 – 1:14:55)

So if you want the whole story, you want names, you want dates, you want the entire accounts, first hand knowledge from the victims, from her earliest victims, you’ll go to our website at www.MainGhostHunters.org slash media and check out our Paranormal Fraud Series there. There’s way more information there. And John just, actually, MJH John just posted a link to our site with that address and how to get to those, how to get to those podcasts and I just posted into the chat room as well.

 

(1:14:56 – 1:15:08)

I’ll link to iTunes where you can get the rest of the blog talk feeds from. Yup. And those two episodes are called, I’m sorry, those two episodes are called A Victim Speaks and A View from the Inside.

 

(1:15:09 – 1:15:17)

Go ahead. I was going to say we have 85 episodes now on iTunes. Nice.

 

(1:15:18 – 1:15:23)

You’ve been busy. Yeah. That includes the one that just happened this last Sunday.

 

(1:15:24 – 1:15:32)

Alright, good. So that’s one nice thing about blog talk. They can sync our things to iTunes really well.

 

(1:15:32 – 1:15:37)

Oh yeah. And fast, too. Yeah, so let’s talk about protocol.

 

(1:15:37 – 1:15:51)

How come we’re not playing video games when we’re on investigations? What are we thinking? I know. I mean, we should bring our Xbox with us and then a little computer screen and we’d be all set. That’s because we’re working.

 

(1:15:52 – 1:16:02)

No, kidding. Theresa, can you imagine us standing there looking at the client and telling them, no, you cannot come into your house. It’s not safe.

 

(1:16:03 – 1:16:07)

Don’t come in. No. No, definitely not.

 

(1:16:08 – 1:16:26)

We usually have at least one person there. If not, several. I mean, depending on the client’s home, the only places that I can think of that we’ve been alone, it’s been of their choice and it’s somebody that you know really well.

 

(1:16:27 – 1:16:58)

Yeah, like a relative or a family friend or something. Yeah, even a public location, usually somebody hangs out with us from that location. So, the very last thing that I can’t even imagine telling a client that their house is so disruptive, so spiritually active and unpredictable that we don’t want them in there.

 

(1:17:00 – 1:17:07)

I got a question for you, Tony. Yeah. Because Theresa and I, we’ve been there just a little over a year.

 

(1:17:07 – 1:17:15)

How many investigations would you say you guys have done? Oh, goodness. I don’t know. It’s a serious question, John.

 

(1:17:15 – 1:17:36)

I know it must be a lot. How many times have you ever found something so negative that you wouldn’t want to be there? Just one time. I was going to say, from what I’ve done, I’ve seen some interesting things, but nothing to the point where I wouldn’t want to be there.

 

(1:17:37 – 1:18:04)

And it sounds to me like this person is going around almost every other place and you shouldn’t be there that bad. I mean… Well, when you think about it, so if you’re… Yeah. So I think the goal in her mind is to make people believe that they are such at risk if she does not help them, that they will do anything for her to help them.

 

(1:18:04 – 1:18:09)

Then she can become the savior. Exactly. And then she can take advantage.

 

(1:18:10 – 1:18:45)

Exactly. That’s why being the leader and the founder of a group, an organization that networks and absorbs other groups, after hearing this show and all the other shows that we’ve done to warn people, they should be scared that their reputation is at risk, that their clients are at risk, that anyone who comes into contact with her leadership is at risk because that is her mentality. But those people probably, the other people who are part of her group, probably will not believe that until something happens to them.

 

(1:18:45 – 1:18:53)

You’re exactly right. A hundred percent. Because often, you know, we often want to believe the best in people.

 

(1:18:53 – 1:19:01)

You know, we want to give people the benefit of the doubt and believe that people can change. And I’m not saying people can’t. Don’t get me wrong.

 

(1:19:01 – 1:19:11)

I’m not saying that people can’t. You know, they definitely can. But, you know, until it comes up and slaps them right in the face, they’re not going to believe it.

 

(1:19:11 – 1:19:29)

So, you know, if you think about it out there, and you think about, you know, predators who prey on other people, that’s always the case. It’s always, well, they’re such an upstanding person. They’ve always been the best neighbor.

 

(1:19:29 – 1:19:35)

They’ve always this, they’ve always that, until something happens. You got it. And then people will then understand.

 

(1:19:36 – 1:19:54)

And no matter how much you say, no matter how much you warn, no matter how much you do that, unless people are going to go into things, you know, kind of suspiciously, which is kind of a shame that people have to think that way, it won’t change. You’ve got it.

(0:13 – 1:30)

(0:00 – 0:12)
Welcome to Zerolux. Let’s hear the intro. We are the main ghost hunters.

(0:13 – 1:30)
How many people are here? Why can we touch some kind of stuff? Are you hiding in here? Who’s that? You or them? How long have you been here? Will you stay here in this house? Good evening and welcome to another episode of Main Ghost Hunters Presents with Zerolux Radio. Tonight we are continuing our Paranormal Fraud series. Our guest this evening is Danielle Battistelli, and she comes from the New Hampshire area.

(1:30 – 1:59)
And we also have Cat here. So Cat, we’re going to just chat up a little bit before we kick off the interview. Cat, are you there? I am.

Can you hear me? I can hear you. Great. How are you doing this evening? I’m doing pretty good.

Yeah. Yeah? Yeah. I know we don’t want to have any spoilers before the interview kicks off, but we had a pretty good interview with Danielle and pretty informative.

(2:00 – 2:21)
And actually some of her interview content has spurred us to kind of look into and investigate some more topics for further radio shows. Okay. Anything you want to, you know, just kind of do a shout-out about before we start the interview? Yeah.

(2:21 – 2:34)
I definitely want to mention from the start that Danielle is on a different team now. She’s not on the team that the issues that she’s going to be discussing. She’s not on that team anymore.

(2:35 – 2:48)
And that team was very closely related. Actually, how do I want to say this? It’s very closely related to that team that we hold near and dear to our hearts. Is that how you put it, Tony? Yeah.

(2:50 – 3:17)
Yeah. So it’s just as you listen to this podcast, to our listeners, as you listen to this podcast, consider that I don’t want to be crass, but I don’t want to come off as crass, but this team is a part of that larger organization up here in New England, which is a major concern considering all the fraud shows that we’ve done with that organization. And what’s the saying, Tony? Poop rolls downhill.

(3:19 – 3:24)
What was that last part? I missed it? Poop. Poop. Poop.

(3:24 – 3:27)
Poop rolls downhill. It does. Poop rolls downhill.

(3:28 – 3:45)
Yes, it certainly does. Right? And this team is a part of that organization. And I don’t want to say too much because there’s actually more to that than the simple sentence, you know, the simple statement, you know, the depth of the simple statement.

(3:45 – 4:14)
But Danielle gives us a perspective on the type of leadership that is completely obvious, evident, and, you know, true leadership quality that is completely lacking in the major organization and the team that she was a part of that belongs to this major organization. It is a disaster all around, and that is why we are doing this podcast tonight. Well said.

(4:14 – 4:26)
All right. Well, without any further delay, I think we should kick it off and let our listeners hear what Danielle has to say. And when that’s all over, it’s about an hour long.

(4:26 – 4:36)
Once that recording is done, we’ll have you and John’s also on the line. And then we’ll bring John back on and we’ll have our review session. All right.

(4:36 – 4:40)
Let’s do it. All right. So here we go, folks.

(4:41 – 4:53)
Enjoy the interview with Danielle. All right. So let’s start a little bit by talking about you and, you know, who you are, where you’re from, your involvement in Paranormal.

(4:53 – 5:10)
So what’s your last name, Danielle? I guess your whole name is? Danielle Battistelli are my maiden name’s lines. Okay. Now, you’re a part of CJ’s Paranormal Group, right? I am.

(5:10 – 5:16)
I’m part of NME, yes. NME, okay. So where is NME from? Salisbury, Massachusetts.

(5:17 – 5:33)
Salisbury, Massachusetts, okay. Yeah, so you were commenting on a thread on Facebook that was kind of shedding some light on the history of another person or this person who was in this group in New Hampshire. Definitely was, yep.

(5:35 – 5:49)
Now, you’ve had some personal knowledge of this person before they were ever involved in Paranormal. So let’s talk a little bit about that. So you’re from Salisbury, Massachusetts, right? No, I’m from Atkinson, New Hampshire.

(5:49 – 5:53)
You’re from Atkinson. But, I mean, that’s not that far away. Okay.

(5:53 – 6:13)
So being in New Hampshire, you knew this person personally? Yeah, I live in Atkinson, and he lives in Concord. And we met years before he started his team, if you want to call it that. And we had dated and gone out.

(6:13 – 6:21)
So I knew him, and I actually knew him a little bit before that. But, yeah, I knew him on a very personal level. Okay.

(6:21 – 6:28)
Now, how old are you now? Do you want me to ask you? I am 33. I’ll be 34, actually. All right.

(6:28 – 6:51)
And how long ago was this that you knew him on that personal level? Oh, geez. How old were you then? I was in college, so it had to have been 2006, maybe, 2007. It’s been a while.

(6:53 – 6:57)
So five or six years ago? Oh, yeah. All right. Definitely.

(6:57 – 7:22)
And did you guys go to college together, or you just lived in the same town? No, we met online on Yahoo, and then met in person, and then things kind of escalated to that point. Okay. Now, at that point in time, were either of you interested in paranormal or involved in the paranormal field? Neither one of us were involved or interested in the paranormal field.

(7:23 – 7:44)
I had actually no interest in any of this until I went to college, and he approached me about it, and I’ll get into that in a second. He was interested in Godzilla, horror movies like Texas Chainsaw Massacre, and raising his daughter. So I never heard anything about him being in this until he called me to be on his team.

(7:45 – 7:54)
Okay. So you dated him for a while. You were in college, and, you know, obviously you stopped dating him at some point in time.

(7:55 – 8:16)
And during that time, he was interested in, like, horror movies and things like that, but nothing to do with paranormal, nothing to do with anything with ghost hunting or anything along those lines. Nothing. He didn’t even own a ghost hunting movie or a ghost hunting, ghost hunters DVD.

(8:17 – 8:26)
Nothing whatsoever. Okay. Now you said that you didn’t know anything about his interest in paranormal until he called you.

(8:26 – 8:48)
And when was that? That would be 2010, probably in the spring. In the springtime, he had called and said that he had set up a paranormal team and he needed, like, somebody who knew how to research. And, you know, we had known each other for years.

(8:48 – 9:11)
And even though I, even though we had broken up, which was not a bad thing, he had been asking me out for a year prior to this point. And I had been saying no, no, no. And he said that he wanted me to be his special assistant and his researcher because he knew I loved to research and stuff in college.

(9:11 – 9:17)
So that’s how that all came about. Okay. So he had just formed the group in the spring of 2010.

(9:18 – 9:32)
Yep. And this is your first knowledge of him having any interest whatsoever in the paranormal field. How many members did he have in his group at that point in time? I want to say like four.

(9:33 – 9:37)
Four? Yeah. I want to say like four. Okay.

(9:38 – 9:44)
And you were going to say including? Including himself. Okay. I want to say like four.

(9:45 – 9:58)
So he and three other people? Yeah. Okay. Now was he dating anybody at that point in time? I did not know that because he was asking me out at the time.

(9:59 – 10:11)
He was repeatedly asking me out for a whole year before that. All right. And this is after you’d already been dating and had broken up? This is after we had broken up the first time, yeah.

(10:11 – 10:20)
I mean, we only broke up because of distance, because he lived an hour from me and didn’t have a car or a license. All right. So he had no car, had no license, lived an hour away from you.

(10:20 – 10:39)
You guys broke up. And for a year before he asked you to join his paranormal investigation group, he was asking you to go out? Yep. And none of those times did he ever mention any interest in the paranormal or any work in the paranormal or any research he was doing? Nope.

(10:40 – 10:47)
Nothing. Not until this time that he decided to tell me he started a group. Okay.

(10:48 – 11:15)
Excuse me. Now when he asked you, he said he wanted you to be his special assistant, did he outline for you what your tasks were going to be? Anything on the side like calling people, paperwork, filling out forms, researching things, anything that had to do with extra work that was pretty much paperwork. It was the paperwork stuff.

(11:15 – 11:34)
Sure. So, I mean, and then, you know, he would, you know, one night, I guess, that he brought me out to the cemetery, because he did that with everybody, was the first night I had met Sandra and he was going over. I didn’t even know who Sandra was until that night.

(11:36 – 11:52)
He brought me out to the cemetery, brought me back, and he was showing me all these forms and things that were supposed to be, you know, my job. I was supposed to come up with a model for their group and I was supposed to come up with a mission statement and all this stuff. So that was part of all that paperwork too.

(11:53 – 12:01)
All right. So he started a group and he wanted you to come up with a model for the group and you to develop a mission statement for the group. Yep.

(12:04 – 12:26)
And so I’m just kind of, that kind of shocks me that the founder of the group has no idea what the mission statement or model should be to start with, but that’s a whole different topic. Now, he took you out to the cemetery and the purpose of that was for training or for what? Yeah. No, that was, well, the cemetery itself was supposed to be for training.

(12:27 – 12:50)
He, you know, would walk around and touch gravestones and tell me that they were talking to him. And all I could do was just stand there and kind of look at him with my head caught to the side, because as I said, I’ve known him for years and he’d never acted like that ever before. So for me to watch him do it then, I was like, all right, so now he’s suddenly talking to things.

(12:50 – 13:03)
So he’s walking around touching gravestones and claiming they’re talking to him? Yep. And that he’s seeing things and this and that. And I was like, okay, if you say so, you know, kind of a thing.

(13:03 – 13:16)
Like all this stuff. I was just whatever, you know. And then we went back to the house and then Sander came bursting through the door and wanted his help with something.

(13:17 – 13:28)
And it was a nighttime, was it daytime? It was nighttime. Well, it was evening, not night-night, but evening. And was it just the two of you or? It was just the two of us.

(13:28 – 13:36)
It was supposed to be just the two of us all evening. Sander was not supposed to show up. She was supposed to be at a crossing over with somebody else who didn’t show up at it, which is why she came over.

(13:37 – 13:51)
Oh, okay. So Sander was off to a crossing over while he was in the cemetery with you. And the purpose of being in the cemetery, again, was it supposed to be for training? Yes.

(13:52 – 14:24)
Okay. Now, while you were there, did he, what exactly did he do for training? Did he show you any equipment, show you how to use any equipment? Did he show you how to conduct any investigations or was it all? It was all just walking around the cemetery and asking, you know, if I felt anything and showing me, you know, how to use a camera basically, which, you know, I know how to use a camera, but okay. And just, I mean, it was just him touching gravestones mostly, telling me that he could talk to them.

(14:24 – 14:35)
I mean, to be honest. All right. Now you finished that portion of your evening and you went back to his house to review paperwork, I presume.

(14:36 – 14:45)
Well, I was supposed to be doing paperwork. Okay. But instead of doing paperwork, what happened? What was your question? I’m sorry.

(14:45 – 14:54)
You were returning to his house and the premise of returning to his house was that you were going to review paperwork. Yes. Okay.

(14:54 – 15:00)
But that’s not what happened. No. Sandra came over, came in, rushed me through the door.

(15:00 – 15:21)
Somebody didn’t show up for a crossing over. So we ended up going with her in separate cars because, of course, I’m going back to Eric’s house to learn more about ghost hunting or paranormal investigating, however you want to put it. And so halfway up there he gets in my car because, of course, he has to explain what’s going on.

(15:22 – 15:27)
Still, none of this is girlfriend, boyfriend. There’s no kissing. There’s no hugging.

(15:27 – 15:38)
There’s no nothing. And we get there and we walk in and there’s a priest there and the father of the person who had supposedly died. The father’s there.

(15:39 – 15:59)
And Eric stands there in front of the priest and says, I’ve been doing this since I was 10 years old. And I just cock-headed looked at him like, are you serious? So, you know, I was amazed. But, I mean, that, you know, Sandra went upstairs with the priest and they did their thing supposedly, came back downstairs.

(16:00 – 16:06)
Me and Eric were downstairs with the father the entire time. I don’t know what took place upstairs. And then we went back.

(16:07 – 16:14)
You know, he said bye to her in a very normal way. And then Eric got in my car and we went back to the house. Okay.

(16:14 – 16:36)
So he proclaimed in front of this priest at a crossing over that he had been conducting paranormal investigations or research or whatever, however he called it, whatever he terms it, since he was 10 years old. He didn’t say it in that way. He just said when the priest said, well, how long have you been doing this? How long have you been in the paranormal field? He said, I’ve been doing this since I’ve been 10 years old.

(16:36 – 16:53)
And however you want to take that is how you want to take that. Well, I mean, if someone, if I’m shoveling snow in my driveway and someone says, how long have you been doing this? And I said, I’ve been doing it since I was 10 years old, I would. Oh, no, I take it the way you, I take it the way you’re saying it.

(16:54 – 17:01)
I absolutely agree with you. I just want to make sure everybody understands the words that came out of his mouth. Yeah.

(17:02 – 17:08)
I’ve been doing this since I was 10 years old. That’s the answer to the question of how long have you been involved in the paranormal basically. Yep.

(17:08 – 17:24)
All right. And, and you just said that you knew him in 2006, 2007 somewhere around that timeframe and he had no interest or knowledge of paranormal. And you dated him for how long back then? Months.

(17:24 – 17:45)
It wasn’t a year, but it was, it was a while. I mean, long enough for me to be going to his mother’s house, know his brother, know his niece, him to be involved with my family enough to be invited to our memorial day parade with my dad marched and stuff like that. Spend the weekend, weekends here, you know, long enough to be involved.

(17:46 – 18:03)
Long enough to know that if he had any interest in paranormal, he would have expressed something along those lines. Oh yeah. If you’re, if you’re getting involved enough to know each other’s family and be involved that, that much, then you would know if somebody was talking to things and you know what I mean? Yeah.

(18:03 – 18:24)
It would be there. So his first, your first knowledge of his interest or desire to have any involvement with the paranormal field was in the spring of 2010 when he contacted you. Did he tell you when or how long he had had this group set up, performed or? He just said he was starting it.

(18:24 – 18:29)
He just said he was starting it. Okay. So he’s starting this group in the spring of 2010.

(18:29 – 18:50)
Did he give you any insights into why he was starting this group? He just said he was interested in it, that it was something that he’s always had a passion for. Huh. So in the spring of 2010, he told you who he had previously been involved in a relationship with, that he’s always had a passion for the paranormal.

(18:51 – 19:00)
Yep. All right. So this evening transpires, you go to the crossing and then, you know, the crossing over and you leave there.

(19:01 – 19:27)
What happens at that point? Um, we go back and it doesn’t end up turning out to what it was supposed to be. After the whole year of asking me out, we decided at that point, you know, since our relationship did not end in a bad way the first time that, and the only thing that’s been shocking at this point to me is that he stood in front of a priest and said that, you know, he, he was doing this since he was 10 years old. Um, we decided that maybe we’ll start dating, not going out necessarily, but dating.

(19:28 – 19:34)
So we sleep with each other that night. That night? That night. Which was probably the plan to begin with.

(19:35 – 19:38)
Yeah. It’s probably his plan to begin with. Yeah.

(19:38 – 19:52)
So this is the first night that you’ve gone over to be involved with a paranormal group. You’ve met his girlfriend, but you didn’t know it was his girlfriend. And you attended the crossing over, listened to him talk about, you know, being able to speak to gravestones.

(19:53 – 20:01)
And he brings you back to his house and you guys have intimate relations. Yep. We all do things we regret.

(20:01 – 20:05)
Yeah. Yeah. So that happens.

(20:06 – 20:09)
Did you spend the night there or? I did. Yep. Okay.

(20:09 – 20:16)
Yeah. At this point, had you met any of his other team members besides Sandra? No. Okay.

(20:16 – 20:29)
No. So you, you, I mean, you knew Eric, so you’re just kind of getting reacquainted with him after not seeing him for a while. Uh, you met Sandra, you attended the training, quote unquote training, and the crossing over.

(20:29 – 20:59)
And you have no idea what transpired during the, while they were doing the crossing over, what were you and Eric doing? We were just hanging out with the dad, talking about their, his son and, you know, his, his dad was just kind of, the dad was just kind of talking and we were listening. Basically, it was all we were doing. Well, when was the next time you, uh, had contact with Eric as far as going somewhere with him after that night? Uh, well, that’s not really the next time I had contact with him.

(20:59 – 21:10)
All right. So, so he may have, you know, you left that next morning, I assume. And then when did you guys talk the next time? Well, we talked, we talked frequently after.

(21:12 – 21:27)
uh, I have a friend who was very into the paranormal and he wanted to join another team. And I gave him Eric as a reference and he ended up joining Eric’s team. But the next time I saw him was not, not a positive experience.

(21:28 – 21:39)
Okay. So you actually referred a friend of yours to join Eric’s group. At this point, he had, so when you joined, um, you were not the fourth person.

(21:39 – 21:44)
You were the fifth person, fifth member of the group. It was a while ago. I might’ve been.

(21:45 – 21:54)
All right. And what, what was the majority of his group made up of males or females? I would say females. Okay.

(21:55 – 22:17)
And at what point in time, Leslie, you said the next time that you talked to him, it was not a positive experience. Why don’t you talk a little? No. The, the next time I saw him, um, was actually the person that I had referred to the group and I showed up with hospital paperwork and doctor’s bills because I ended up in the hospital with a bacterial infection, a yeast infection.

(22:17 – 22:31)
And I don’t, there was something else going on that I can’t remember, but I ended up on steroids and two antibiotics because he had slept with Sandra that I didn’t know he was with the night before. All right. Great.

(22:32 – 22:37)
Fabulous. So, yeah. And the friend that I had referred went with me.

(22:37 – 22:53)
So he is all aware of, you know, Eric’s reaction. Was he a member? Was, was he now a member of this organization or? He is not a member of that organization. Well, but at that point, you said you had referred him to Eric.

(22:53 – 22:57)
Yeah, he was. Yeah, he was. Yeah.

(22:58 – 23:09)
Now, how much time had transpired? Um, maybe a week or two. It wasn’t long because I ended up in so much pain. I get kidney stones.

(23:09 – 23:12)
I thought I was a kidney stone. I was in the hospital. I’m in the ER.

(23:12 – 23:20)
I was in a lot of pain. So you showed up with doctor’s bills and things like that. Did Eric pay them or? No, no.

(23:20 – 23:27)
Eric didn’t want to have anything to do with it because if he had done that, then she would have found out. He wanted, he didn’t want to tell her. He didn’t want anything to do with it.

(23:27 – 23:39)
He did not deny it either. He would, the only thing he did was try to change the subject. So was Sandra there? No, the friend of mine was there who does not mind his name being put in any of this.

(23:40 – 23:44)
Well, go ahead and say his name. Keith Glenn. Okay.

(23:45 – 23:48)
So Keith was with you. So it was just you and Keith and Eric. Yep.

(23:49 – 23:56)
Okay. Now, and you said Eric didn’t deny it, but he wouldn’t take responsibility for it. No, he doesn’t take responsibility for anything.

(23:57 – 24:19)
Okay. Um, and at this point you still were not aware of Sandra or? No, no, because he, he doesn’t, at that point he wasn’t even, nothing was about the two of them. I mean, I hadn’t even seen other than that one time and, you know, I hadn’t seen her and they weren’t listed as together online.

(24:19 – 24:41)
There were no photos of the two of them together. I mean, there was nothing to show me that they were together at all. And I mean, he had been asking me out for a year, so why would I think he had a girlfriend? I mean, I didn’t have positive proof really that they were together until the blowout between that team and the other one that they were working with online.

(24:41 – 24:49)
And I was actually on the phone with Eric when that happened. And I was like, what do you mean you were, blah, I flipped out. I completely flipped out.

(24:50 – 24:59)
And that was right before we went to Salem, and that was a bad day too. We’ll get to that too. Okay.

(25:00 – 25:20)
So, so a couple of weeks after you went for your initiation into his team, which evidently the initiation was going, sleeping with him that night and him transferring sexually transmitted diseases to you, you confronted him about this issue. He took no responsibility. And refused to pay your bills.

(25:21 – 25:32)
And then, did you continue to see him after that? Or were you done? I did not. I did not continue to see him. I was even, I didn’t even know if I wanted to stay on the team, but I was getting really close to team members.

(25:33 – 25:40)
Like there was a woman on the team that I really liked and I felt really bad for her too. And that’s a whole nother story. Okay.

(25:41 – 26:00)
All right. So, how long after that did you, did you, did you go on an investigation? How long does it take for you to go on an investigation, a proper investigation with this team? A long time. And he kept pushing them off because he didn’t, you know, if I was around Sandra, I think he just didn’t want me around Sandra.

(26:01 – 26:19)
So, I think I went on probably two regular ones because he, he just didn’t, he kept me away from everything. He had me do all the research. Was, was, was the team not doing investigations or you just weren’t going? No, they, they did a lot.

(26:19 – 26:27)
They did them. And I just wasn’t allowed to, I did lots of research. He gave me lots of stuff to do, but I didn’t, I wasn’t going anywhere.

(26:27 – 26:34)
And he would tell me there were number limits and stuff. And then Keith would show up at them because he was supposed to go. And then he’d be texting me.

(26:34 – 26:48)
There were like 15 people there. 15 people had a residential investigation. That wasn’t a residential one, but I mean, he would text me that there were, there were more people than they were supposed to be at certain places.

(26:48 – 26:54)
And he’s like, this is all crap. And he ended up quitting before he could get thrown out too. Yeah.

(26:54 – 27:24)
So, what types of investigations are these that he’s conducting or that the team is conducting? Are these like the types of investigations that most anybody could go to if they paid to be, you know, paid admission to get to these places or? When I was on the team and granted, I wasn’t on the team for a huge amount of time. He went to, you know, older places that didn’t even, you know, weren’t open anymore. So they didn’t, you didn’t pay to get in.

(27:25 – 27:36)
They went to one residential place that I know of that I went to. And it was very bogus. It wasn’t that the people, it wasn’t that the people were bogus.

(27:36 – 27:54)
It was the way it was done was bogus. And it didn’t matter how many of us told him that he is always going in screaming that there’s something going on. It, I don’t have as much experience with what he’s doing now because I’m not part of it.

(27:55 – 27:56)
So. Right. Okay.

(27:57 – 28:03)
Back then he was trying to go to, and he does a lot of cemeteries. He thinks that going to cemeteries is an investigation. He did that.

(28:03 – 28:12)
Then he’s doing it now. Okay. So you were involved with helmet.

(28:12 – 28:26)
Was it like just a couple of months, two months, four months. Probably like in the actual like grid of it, probably like six or eight. But I mean, he was, he was pushing that.

(28:27 – 28:36)
That was like from the very start when it was being created. All right. So you mentioned that, you went on two investigations.

(28:36 – 28:43)
Those two investigations that you went on with Sandra there. Yes. She’s always there with a laptop.

(28:44 – 29:04)
The laptop. What’s her role with the organization? As far as I could tell with what she was doing, our job at their policy was for us to give her the pictures. And she was supposed to go through them with that laptop and post what they weren’t supposed, what was supposed to be posted or not.

(29:04 – 29:17)
Her or Eric, we’re going to go through them. And that’s how pictures were posted. And these are evidence pictures or just any pictures, any pictures that we took those, those nights that we were just supposed to hand our pictures over.

(29:17 – 29:22)
And it was to be decided by them. What posted. That’s what Sandra’s role was to do the laptop.

(29:23 – 29:28)
All right. So she just basically did a picture review. Yeah.

(29:29 – 29:42)
She was definitely. Okay. What, what equipment was used on the investigations when you were attending? A lot of cameras, a lot of cameras and voice recorders.

(29:44 – 29:52)
Any night vision video cameras or any video cameras at all? No, not that. But granted, this is in the very, very beginning. Not then.

(29:53 – 30:04)
Okay. Any other equipments like the typical K two meters or millimeters or anything on those lines? Okay. So just video, sorry, just audio recorders and still pictures.

(30:04 – 30:14)
I think if he got going, he might have at the very end of my being there, he might’ve gotten a millimeter. Okay. All right.

(30:15 – 30:27)
Now. Sandra. So Sandra’s role, as far as you knew at that point in time, was reviewing pictures and photos from the investigations.

(30:27 – 30:36)
Oh, yeah. Was there any hint at all? You had no, you were not aware at all that the two of them were dating. By the time, by then.

(30:36 – 30:41)
Oh yeah. By then. By the time that was a whole explosion happened.

(30:41 – 30:50)
And then we went to Salem. It was right before Salem. Yes, there was, we were definitely all attuned to who was dating who.

(30:51 – 30:54)
Okay. Let’s, let’s talk a little bit. That’s back.

(30:55 – 30:59)
That’s backtracked a little bit before you started going. So you found out about that. Oh, no, wait, no, that was after.

(30:59 – 31:02)
I’m sorry. Salem is after that house. Salem’s after the house.

(31:03 – 31:14)
So no, I still, I still didn’t know they were dating. Okay. So you, you’ve talked a little bit about, you were on the phone with Eric at one point in time when there was a big blow up with another team.

(31:15 – 31:33)
Yep. And what, what, can you tell us a little bit about that blow up, what the disagreement was all about or what the argument was about or. Um, it was because I had just read online that, that he was with Sandra and there was no, there was never any clue.

(31:33 – 31:49)
And maybe he felt like, you know, he was being professional or whatever when we were out or whatever. But I, I don’t think that that’s why I don’t think that that’s the reason. Maybe that’s what people are saying, but I think it was because he was trying to, to sleep through his team on it.

(31:49 – 32:02)
Honestly, I’m not the only one that I know of that. He was trying to get in the war while he did get in my pants. But I mean, I know somebody else who, who he was trying to do that with and screwed up a two year relationship at the same time.

(32:03 – 32:12)
So, I mean, when it got to Salem, I was, I was irate, you know, that thread when Sandra says, I was, I was verbal. Oh, I was verbal. I was mad.

(32:13 – 32:42)
I was very mad. So, so the blow up was, so it was a blow up between you and Eric or was it a blow up between Eric and another team? Um, online, it was a blow up between Eric and another team. Um, and somebody wrote in, well, doesn’t she know, talking about the other team’s head person, that you and Sandra are together because they were, they were at a location and had a fight.

(32:42 – 32:54)
I wasn’t there that night, so I don’t know all the facts, but that was what was online. And I was on the phone with Eric and said, well, what do you mean you’re with her? Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, because obviously we had stuff together. I was pissed.

(32:57 – 33:19)
So, somebody posted, doesn’t she know that you’re with Sandra or Sandra’s with you or vice versa? what was, what was, was there a disagreement about one of the two of them attending an event or something? Um, there was a disagreement about what happened at the event. Somebody was supposedly inappropriate or something. I wasn’t there.

(33:19 – 33:25)
All right. So there was some inappropriate actions on either Eric’s or Sandra’s behalf? No, it wasn’t. It wasn’t.

(33:25 – 33:45)
It wasn’t Central. It was the other team. And that, and Eric was, somebody said something and Sandra got mad and Eric dismissed the other team from Central and the other team and Eric didn’t work together and then Unity came up and now they’re all friends and it wasn’t Sandra or Eric.

(33:46 – 33:59)
Okay. So somebody else did something inappropriate that sparked some anger on Sandra’s behalf and that’s when it all came about, that they were dating? Yep. All right.

(34:00 – 34:26)
So one of the other, I think one of the other team members on the other team made an inappropriate action or comment toward or about Eric? Okay. Made an inappropriate action at a, made an inappropriate action at a, at a, at a location and it was brought up and Sandra said something about what happened and then Eric fused it and then somebody else said something. It was just a very extremely long thread.

(34:26 – 34:44)
All right. So do you want to talk about who, do you want to talk any more details about this, this incident or like who it was or what happened or? About the other girl? Yeah. I’ll tell you what happened.

(34:44 – 35:10)
I won’t say her name because I haven’t talked to her to know, to let you know who she is, but I will tell you what happened. He would call her every night and tell her he loves her. She was with somebody for a couple of years and they had a rocky relationship, but they were trying to work it out and Eric would tell her that he loves her and he’s not, you know, that other guy’s not good for her and that he’s way better for her and he was going to get his license reinstated.

(35:10 – 35:20)
I don’t think so. He didn’t have a license when he was with me or before me, so I don’t think that’s ever happening. Um, and he was going to get a car and he was going to leave Sandra and come move in with her.

(35:20 – 35:38)
So, you know, if he, if she kicked him out, then he’d come live with her. So she kicked him out and, um, not only did he wreck the relationship, which he was not leaving Sandra for her, so wrecked it for nothing. She brought, he brought her on the team to be a magnet.

(35:38 – 35:52)
She had a lot of health problems. She walked with a cane. She had severe problems and she was going to, he was going to bring her to the most active places we had, um, and not tell her and not give her any protection either.

(35:52 – 36:09)
Not tell her how to protect herself to see if, you know, it would bring out more negativity and wherever we were. So that’s what happened with that. So I don’t know how much of that you got before the phone, like, decided to… I get it.

(36:10 – 36:20)
I got my question out and he started to say, he called this girl every night and told her he loved her and then I lost, everything was gone. So I’m going to repeat my question. Okay.

(36:21 – 36:36)
So, um, would it be possible to tell us a little bit about what the inappropriate behavior was and what went on? So you want me to tell you about the, um, the other girl that was involved? Yeah. Tell us. Yeah.

(36:36 – 36:45)
So something happened at an event that caused Sandra to get all upset. So tell us about what happened. Let’s be a little more… All right.

(36:45 – 36:56)
Let me… Let me tell… Let’s be a little more specific about the behavior. Let me tell you about this girl because, um, that’s part of the reason why I got so upset. So… Okay.

(36:56 – 37:14)
To leave her name out of it, um, he had been telling her for roughly the same amount of time he had been calling me and asking me out, um, that he loved her like every night calling her on her cell. And, um, she had been in a two year relationship with a guy. Um, and it wasn’t a great relationship.

(37:14 – 37:43)
It was rocky, but, um, they were trying to work it out and Eric would use that to his advantage and, you know, tell her that he would treat her better and that, you know, she, she can do better and, you know, that he would come, come down and live with her and, and be with her. Um, and so finally she threw him out, um, to be with Eric and Eric was supposedly reinstating his license, which he’s, you know, as far as I know, never had, but okay. Um, and getting a car and… Hold on.

(37:43 – 37:59)
Huh? Hold on a second. So… As far as you know, Eric has never had a license? As far as I know, he has never had a license. He didn’t have one when he was with me and he, as far as I know from what he told me, he has never had one.

(37:59 – 38:12)
He’s ridden his bike to all of his jobs. Um, that’s a whole nother question. Um, and… I didn’t mean to interrupt that, but I had meant to ask that earlier.

(38:12 – 38:36)
If he’s ever had a license or if he just lost his license because of violations or what, so… I asked him about that and he wouldn’t, he wouldn’t really… Every time I asked him, he kind of dodged the question and I don’t know if he lost it when he was really young or whatever, but when I was with him, he was like, I haven’t had a license or whatever. He would just tell me he didn’t have it and he’s not had it. So… Okay.

(38:37 – 39:07)
So… Go on. So… So he was supposed to be getting his license and he was supposed to be getting a car so he could move out of San… Well, move out of his house in Concord, because he lived in Concord and Sandra lived in Bosco and move down to where she lived, because she lived in southern New Hampshire. And, um… And she was all good with that and she believed that and she kicked him out.

(39:08 – 39:17)
And then to add fuel to the fire, this girl was brought on the team to be a magnet. She walked with a cane. She had massive health issues.

(39:17 – 39:36)
She had big problems and I really got close to her at the time. Really, really sweet lady. She was going to be brought into the worst places supposedly that we had, is what he thought were the worst places we had, and was not going to be told about any kind of protection at all.

(39:36 – 39:58)
So the first thing I did was take her out to get her protection, stones, things like that, teach her about that. And inform Eric that that was not okay. So his goal with this new member was to use her to attract paranormal activity? Yeah.

(39:58 – 40:06)
Yeah, I knew that before. I knew that she was…that they were, you know, together supposedly. Yeah.

(40:06 – 40:24)
But did she know that that was her purpose? Did she know that she was going to be used as bait? I told her that. No, she did not know. So that was Eric’s whole intention was to use her as bait, but he was not going to tell her that? No, she was supposedly brought on his team, in her opinion, because they were together.

(40:25 – 40:37)
Like, you know, just like I was brought on the team to be the special assistant. Right. So she’s under the impression that they’re dating or they’re together or they’re in a relationship and that’s why they’re becoming a member of the team, okay? Right.

(40:37 – 40:40)
All right. All right, sorry. Let’s keep going then.

(40:41 – 40:53)
So you took her out to give her some sort of protection, some spiritual protection so she wouldn’t be, okay? Okay. Because that’s just wrong on all levels. Yeah.

(40:53 – 41:30)
So you let her in on the fact that she was there to be bait? I did. Absolutely. And what was her reaction to that? I think she was mad at me at first, but then, like, within the same day, like, because we were hanging out, she kind of got over the fact that being mad at me, but she still wanted to be with him because that night, I didn’t know yet, but that night she was answering the phone and I knew it had to have been him later, like, when I found out the way she was talking on the phone.

(41:30 – 41:50)
So, I mean, you would think that she’d be mad at him, but, I mean, I don’t know, I guess you’d call it she was, like, had a crush or love or whatever. I mean, she was mad at first at me and then she got over it. All right.

(41:51 – 41:55)
She wanted to be with Eric, so. She wanted to be with Eric, yeah. Okay.

(41:57 – 42:13)
So, he’s brought you onto the team. He invited you up to his place, told you, hey, I just started this new paranormal investigation group. I want you to come up and be a member, be my special assistant, and he showed you what his special assistant terms were on that night.

(42:14 – 42:37)
He certainly did. Yes. And then, all the while, he’s… So, how long before you became a member did you find out this information or not? How long before you became a member and you went up there that night the first time has he been seeing Sandra? How long has he been seeing Sandra before he slept with you? I can’t answer that.

(42:37 – 42:47)
I can tell you that he slept with her the night before me because I found that out, but I can’t… I don’t know how long he’d been with Sandra. I just know that he’d been asking me out for a year. I don’t know how long they were dating.

(42:48 – 42:59)
I don’t know. Long enough for that, for our trip to Salem that fall for her kids to be calling him daddy all day. Okay.

(43:02 – 43:24)
So, he brought you up. He had a physical relationship with Sandra the night before you went up for your very first investigation with him. After your very first investigation, you spent the night with him, and now he’s trying to get this other girl who he’s actually convinced to disrupt a relationship she had been in, a long-term relationship, so that she can be with him.

(43:25 – 43:48)
Mm-hmm. This is now three members of this person’s team who he has manipulated to have sex with. I don’t know if he ever actually got in a bed with this girl I’m talking about because of the distance and the fact that he did not have a car and she did not drive because of health issues, but she definitely picked out somebody for him to come live with her.

(43:49 – 44:01)
So, it was at that level. Right. So, at that point, you weren’t aware of a physical relationship between the two, but he had a physical relationship with you.

(44:01 – 44:11)
He had a physical relationship with Sandra, and he was doing all he could to have a physical relationship with another person. And they were having a relationship. It just wasn’t physical that I know of.

(44:12 – 44:18)
Right. But he manipulated her to the point where she ended the relationship. Yeah.

(44:19 – 44:25)
While he’s still in a relationship with Sandra. Mm-hmm. And her kids are calling Betty.

(44:26 – 44:53)
Yeah. Did this other person, this other girl, did she not know about Sandra? Um, no, she did. Because she knew that he had to get a car to come down and leave because she told me that Eric had told her that he needed to get a car and his license to move out of the area he was and leave Sandra.

(44:53 – 45:00)
So, she knew about Sandra. Okay. I didn’t know about Sandra.

(45:01 – 45:11)
Huh? Is she still a member of the team? I don’t think so. She’s not on the site. But that doesn’t mean anything.

(45:13 – 45:23)
No, it doesn’t. And as we know from some other teams’ websites, it doesn’t mean anything if you are on their website. Well, at this point, from this morning, Eric wasn’t on the site.

(45:23 – 45:31)
So, you know. All right. So, we’re going to go ahead with that line of questioning.

(45:32 – 45:43)
Oh. So, what does Eric do for work? Do you know? Well, good question. I think at this point, he does dishwashing.

(45:44 – 46:00)
He has worked in a hotel as a maintenance person. And before that, I definitely know when I was with him, he worked security. However, which is fun, because he got fired from that job.

(46:01 – 46:12)
Now, when I say security, I mean hold a flashlight and walk around a nursing home. But he was fired to the point of can’t step foot on premises again. Really? Yeah.

(46:12 – 46:44)
And when I asked him why he was fired, he would never tell me. So, when I have people from other teams calling me and saying that Eric is running security for events, I get a little panicked, because Eric knows nothing about security. And what were you guys talking about, Amy, earlier when I was having technical difficulty? Oh, we were talking about the split.

(46:44 – 47:22)
Oh, when I was talking to you earlier about the big thing online that happened between the two teams, that was New England Ghost and Eric’s team, Central, and they had split. And it was Amy that had gotten in a fight with Sandra or whatever. And then we were talking about Amy and Allison and how people, you know, she seems to not be too bright of a person of, you know, taking things that may not belong to her.

(47:22 – 47:31)
I have a friend that’s on that team, and he doesn’t see her in a very positive light. Hey. Yeah.

(47:34 – 47:50)
Like, when people pay for an investigation, they prepaid. When I was on Central, we were teamed with Amy’s team, and we prepaid for a lot of things. It’s how they run.

(47:50 – 48:00)
And they do a lot of paid investigations. And Amy’s always the one that ends up with the money. If you write a check, it goes to Amy.

(48:01 – 48:08)
You write the check out to her name? To her, yeah. And then she’d pay the place or whatever. Okay.

(48:09 – 48:23)
And if she sends the fee, it tells you how much you need to pay her so you can attend the event. Right, unless it’s something that’s, like, direct. There’s been occasional ones that have been PayPal’d directly to something online, but that happens very rarely.

(48:25 – 48:35)
Right. But, I mean, I’ve lost $40 to Amy because I paid something. And then things get canceled, and we never get our money back.

(48:35 – 48:47)
Right. Because she’ll come back with the excuse, well, money’s tight right now. Well, if people paid for an investigation, shouldn’t that all be in a bank account or in an envelope somewhere? You got your money.

(48:48 – 48:52)
It’s not your money. It’s the investigator’s money, not your money. Yeah, okay.

(48:53 – 49:09)
Now, can I ask you a question? Well, maybe, I mean, I don’t even understand why they’re together, though. Because they separated because of this incident that happened with, you know, an investigation. And Amy supposedly did something.

(49:10 – 49:18)
I was not there, but, I mean, it was all over. It must have happened the way it did. But, you know, she did something very inappropriate in an investigation.

(49:19 – 49:29)
And the two teams had a huge battle over it, split. Then Eric comes up with unity bullshit. Oh, sorry, crap.

(49:30 – 49:48)
And then, you know, and then all of a sudden, everything’s fine. Then it’s not fine because Eric goes and uses paperwork and takes, New England goes the name off of it and puts Central New Hampshire’s name on it. And so it’s not fine.

(49:48 – 49:56)
And then Amy is supposedly going to sue Eric. And that’s all magically disappeared. And now they’re chummy again.

(49:58 – 50:09)
So you’re talking, she did something inappropriate at an investigation. Did you say you were there or you weren’t there? I was not there. I read about it online and was told by people who were there.

(50:10 – 50:25)
I’ve heard something about an investigation that they did at a jail where something very inappropriate took place. That would be the inappropriate investigation, yes. So, I mean, enough people have talked about it.

(50:25 – 50:34)
I think I can safely say that it must be fact. I would safely say it’s fact as well. I think everybody knows about it.

(50:35 – 50:43)
Yes. And yet she still considers herself to be a professional paranormal investigator. It’s amazing.

(50:44 – 50:50)
Yes, she was making up excuses all night for that one. I had to do it. Making up excuses.

(50:50 – 51:09)
I had to do it, blah, blah, blah. So how much involvement did you have with her team? Was it just that one investigation that you went to or did you go on everything? I didn’t do actually any. I wouldn’t go out with their team.

(51:10 – 51:30)
We were required by Eric to join Amy’s team. Once he joined hers and was affiliated, we had to send in applications to Amy. It was a requirement because he wanted to branch out.

(51:31 – 51:41)
All right. So, I mean, I didn’t go on any big investigations or anything with Amy’s team because I wasn’t part of Amy’s team. I mean, Amy had all these requirements.

(51:41 – 51:48)
You had to do this many a year and this and that and the other thing. You had to pay for everything. And I did pay the once to go somewhere.

(51:48 – 51:55)
I was going to go somewhere, but I don’t remember. I think a lighthouse or something. But that ended up getting canceled and my money was gone.

(51:57 – 52:09)
Cool. I never got it back, so why would I go somewhere else? So you did go to the lighthouse? No, I was going to go to it. I paid for it, and then it was canceled, and she never returned my money.

(52:12 – 52:24)
Which lighthouse was that? Was that the Rose Island Lighthouse? Yes. And it got canceled? Because she’s been to the Rose Island Lighthouse. You know that, right? Yes, she has.

(52:24 – 52:46)
She’s been there a couple of times, but she’s planned it two or three other times, and those times it’s been canceled. She cancels all the time. So how long has it been since you’ve been involved with Eric’s group? Since probably… It would have been like a month maybe after Salem.

(52:47 – 52:55)
Because Salem was really the end of it. I mean, when Salem happened, it was just over. Even though I was still on the team for a little while after that, I was done.

(52:55 – 52:59)
And Eric knew it. And Eric did not want me around Sandra ever again. Yes.

(52:59 – 53:09)
So you went to the town of Salem? Yes, we did. We went on a fun trip. A fun trip? Yeah, it wasn’t fun.

(53:10 – 53:22)
It was not fun. Was this a Halloween time, anything special, or just a trip to Salem? I want to say it was late. It was fall, but it wasn’t Halloween.

(53:23 – 53:28)
It was before that. It was just a fun place to go. Okay.

(53:28 – 53:40)
What place did you go to down there? We went to a park. A park? We went to a park, yeah, by the water, just to have a fun day. It wasn’t fun.

(53:42 – 53:54)
And were you there to investigate or just to hang out as a team? No, just to hang out as a team. Some people brought their families. Like, she brought her kids.

(53:54 – 53:58)
Kids were allowed if you wanted to bring them. I did not bring mine. I have two, and I didn’t bring them.

(53:59 – 54:12)
I knew it could have been a fiasco, and it was. Now, it was at that point that you found out about Sandra? No, I found out at that blowout online. Okay.

(54:13 – 54:21)
Before you went to Salem? Before I went to Salem. But I was already mad at Salem because he would not tell her. He would not tell her anything about it.

(54:22 – 54:29)
And then I saw him being called daddy all day by two children. And I was infuriated because I knew about me and I knew about this other girl. And I was very angry.

(54:31 – 54:51)
So at that point, he was already conversing with this other girl? Yeah, he had been conversing with that other girl the whole time he was trying to converse with me and everything. He had been conversing with her and had the guy thrown out. And, oh, yeah, that stopped with her after Salem.

(54:51 – 54:57)
Okay. Everything stopped with that after Salem. She went, actually.

(54:57 – 55:02)
She went with me. And when she saw him with the kids, it ended for her. Yeah.

(55:04 – 55:12)
It ended with me before that, obviously. I had to go to the hospital. I mean… Yeah.

(55:12 – 55:31)
Now, here’s something interesting to note. There’s that thread that you were on where you were talking about this incident with Eric and the disease. We see people come in in support of Eric, right? I don’t see Eric coming in to make any comments.

(55:31 – 55:50)
Do you have any perceptions as to why that may be? Because he’s a coward. He’s a coward. He has his Sandra defending him when she’s the acting founder on the website now.

(55:50 – 56:02)
Eric’s not even on it. And if she read that site, the whole thread, I would not be defending him anymore. But then again, she probably thinks I’m lying.

(56:04 – 56:13)
So, more power to her, I guess. I mean, I don’t know. I would be mad if it was my other half.

(56:15 – 56:20)
Yeah, I would say. So, I’m going to go check out the website right now. It’s the Paranormal Society website.

(56:20 – 56:34)
It’s their website, do you know? What’s what? I think it’s CentralNHParanormalSociety. From Blogspot.com? I don’t think it’s Blogspot. I think it’s an actual website.

(56:34 – 56:46)
But he does have Blogspot. He actually has his own Paranormal Society. He has Eric Perry Paranormal Investigations.

(56:46 – 57:15)
He has his own investigation team of himself as well. So, you brought up a good topic a little bit ago about Eric and this other team and their little tiff with each other. And then all of a sudden, they’re on a Paranormal Unity gig.

(57:16 – 58:02)
And I know you must be very familiar with CJ and his willingness to be vocal about Paranormal Unity and what Paranormal Unity really means with these people who are pushing for it. And my impression of why they had to buddy up and make up and go on this Paranormal Unity gig with each other is because they’re getting to the realization that because of the way they are and their reputations and their actions, they’re not going to be able to come up with anybody but each other and other people that will like them. Right.

I agree with that. I think it’s a whole shield. And when it started, we all clicked it.

(58:03 – 58:11)
We all were like, oh, okay, we can try this. I mean, if that’s what they really want to do, I mean, because we all did. We were all like, okay, whatever.

(58:12 – 58:18)
I think it was less than a week. I want to say it was less than three days. We all laughed.

(58:19 – 58:27)
We were all like, all right, this is such crap. It was all just a window. You could see right through it.

(58:28 – 58:37)
Right. It’s a big fun. It’s a big way for them to protect themselves from and say, oh, don’t bully us.

(58:37 – 58:43)
We’re paranormal. We’re all about being open and honest and friendly with people, and you’re just being bullies. Absolutely.

(58:44 – 59:25)
I mean, I was watching a video actually last night of Eric and Sandra explaining, well, mostly Eric, he just introduced her, of explaining his team, mostly the paranormal itself. And I could only watch a few minutes of it before I had to just shut it off because it was such a horrible explanation of anything. And he made ghosts and spirits and the whole paranormal world seem like monsters, Dracula, and things that were going to come out and climb from underneath your bed and eat you.

(59:25 – 59:39)
I mean, I can’t really even explain in words how bad it was. He’s like, I’m here to protect you. You should never go out and do this yourself because it’s dangerous.

(59:39 – 59:47)
You get hurt. I mean, the words that were coming out of his mouth were really bad. He’s like, I’ve been possessed many, many times.

(59:47 – 1:00:17)
I mean, I was like, seriously? I mean, really? You’ve been possessed several times? Yeah. And I mean, the way he was explaining it at this, I guess it was some kind of inter, you know, thing with a whole bunch of people at it and done at a hotel and they all went together or whatever. He had explained it like the spiritual world is a world that’s coming to get us.

(1:00:18 – 1:00:29)
You know, we’re all like kind of victims to it. And, you know, it’s not a positive experience ever for anybody. It’s all bad and negative.

(1:00:29 – 1:00:42)
That’s the way he explained it. It was not a good video at all. And he said, but I’m here to protect, you know, to protect you.

(1:00:43 – 1:00:55)
You know, like he’s this like godly shield. And I’m like, yeah, okay. You know, he’s explaining that he has these ghosts that follow him around all the time and that he sees everything and hears everything.

(1:00:55 – 1:01:02)
And I was just like, I couldn’t watch it anymore. I sent the link to CJ. Yeah, there you go.

(1:01:05 – 1:01:09)
You can laugh later. Yeah. It sounds like fun.

(1:01:10 – 1:01:32)
You mentioned that when you got involved with when Eric’s team paired up with New England Ghosts that you had to fill out an application and provide them with an application fee. Did they tell you what the application fee was, what the purpose of that was? No, no, no fee. The fee was for an investigation.

(1:01:32 – 1:01:47)
The application was something we had to fill out to get into New England Ghosts. And supposedly we had a credit check, too. Also, did he ask you for your social security number? I don’t remember.

(1:01:49 – 1:01:56)
I don’t. It was very long. Huh? The only way to do a credit check is to get your social security number.

(1:01:57 – 1:02:27)
It was a very long application. We had to do it because Eric required us to be on both teams if we were going to be on his. And I was like, huh? Just for the listeners of the show after it’s recorded and replayed, if anybody ever asks you for your social security number and it’s not a bank or a true credit agency, don’t give it to them.

(1:02:27 – 1:02:41)
By law, it would be illegal for somebody who is not asking you, if it’s not your employer or going to be your employer or a credit agency, to ask your social security number. It’s illegal. Yes.

(1:02:42 – 1:02:58)
Keep that in mind. If anything ever happens and the enemy is not around anymore and other teams want you to become a member, don’t give them your social security number, ever. I guess, CJ, are you there? Of course, I’m here.

(1:03:01 – 1:03:24)
You’re listening intently in the background there. I’m listening to him. At what point in time… So, Daniel, I just want to start getting some interaction here with CJ as well and get some perspectives from him regarding your past involvement with Eric and coming into enemies.

(1:03:24 – 1:03:49)
How long ago did you guys get together in the paranormal field? Who’s that? Me and Eric? You and Daniel. At one point, eventually, after a short time, enemies are not that active, to be honest. I always put that out front because we’re not.

(1:03:50 – 1:04:09)
We moved away from him. After a while of doing our own thing on the side, suddenly, Daniel and Barry, for example, and Keith too, suddenly, I got messages being like, we can’t deal with Eric’s crap anymore. Is there a place for us on enemy? I’m like, of course.

(1:04:09 – 1:04:25)
My doors are open because his loss is our gain. Now, you guys were all together at the infamous investigation where Amy did that inappropriate action. Oh, those poor ghosts.

(1:04:25 – 1:04:34)
If you have to see somebody’s private parts, even if you’re dead, that’s a tough hit to take. I don’t care if you’re an inmate or not. I was there.

(1:04:34 – 1:04:57)
Fortunately, I was on the second tier of the jail, so I didn’t actually see what was going on. She ran around and flashed all the cells, you know what I mean? I didn’t expect the whole debacle between them and Central New Hampshire in the first place was Sandy and them coming to blows over what was appropriate and what wasn’t. Like I say, fortunately, the lights were out and I was on the top tier, so I didn’t have to suffer that.

(1:04:57 – 1:05:24)
Right. So, you saw the fallout and you were getting contacted by his members. Was this like an abundance of Eric’s members or CNN, CNH, PF members that were having these issues with the founder? I mean, it seemed like a bit, you know what I mean? It was kind of like all in a spurt, too.

(1:05:24 – 1:06:00)
I mean, honestly, Danielle and Keith first were the ones and then all of a sudden Barry messaged me as well on Facebook and they’re just like, look, this is just garbage. Obviously, Danielle and Keith had their reasons, but I mean, and then Barry came in, you know, explaining to me how, you know, he’s a firefighter, obviously, we’ve had him on here before and, you know, them giving him crap about missing meetings and investigations, like he has a pretty important job like saving people’s lives and I just always took issue with that. Like you gotta, you gotta, like life has to come first.

(1:06:00 – 1:06:13)
I mean, it has to. People got families, they got jobs. I mean, there’s stuff that needs to be done before you can, we don’t all have the luxury of running around every weekend or any night of the week and looking for ghosts, you know.

(1:06:13 – 1:06:26)
There’s real life stuff that goes on. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, we had Barry on, we did the interview with him and heard that story and it’s, you know, it’s pretty amazing to be treated the way.

(1:06:26 – 1:06:44)
So, Danielle, you know, the experience that you described, your very first night where you went for training with Eric, that’s not the first time I’ve heard that. Well, of course, Barry didn’t go home and sleep with him afterwards, but he had a very similar experience. That’s what he did with everybody.

(1:06:45 – 1:06:56)
That’s what he did with everybody. But I mean, the girls all seemed to be alone the first night. I’m not saying he slept with all of them, but I mean, I don’t know.

(1:06:57 – 1:07:12)
Yeah, that’s a huge, I mean, one of, we actually, the main goal is we have a, we have a code of ethics that people have to abide by. Owen had to write that too. They become members.

(1:07:12 – 1:07:24)
One of our core rules is no male and female investigator will ever go off on their own. Ever. Now, Kat and I both are married, but like I would never go off with you.

(1:07:24 – 1:07:36)
You would never go off with John. I would never go off with John’s wife. There’s always going to be, you know, a third person there if it’s a team that’s made up of male and female.

(1:07:37 – 1:07:41)
Always going to be somebody else there. And that’s for everybody’s safety. It’s a good policy.

(1:07:42 – 1:08:03)
Yeah. So it sounds like this guy, you know, he founded this team and realized, hey, look, all these girls want to be members. Now, when you got here, when you first started in paranormal CJ, I don’t remember, were you, did you get hooked up with Eric Ferry and CNHPS before you started Anime? Yeah, kind of like right around the time.

(1:08:03 – 1:08:13)
I had a little thing, kind of like, it was basically me and whoever I could get to tag along. For like a year. And then, you know, I met some people and Anime was kind of born.

(1:08:14 – 1:08:28)
But, you know, and I’ve said before too, I was really naive, obviously, coming into this. Like when he originally contacted me, it was in regards because he was like, oh, I see how you’re doing really good with the Anime page. He’s like, I have a new team.

(1:08:28 – 1:08:55)
You know, would you consider coming on and like admitting our Facebook page? And that’s how I originally met him. I took over and was running the Central New Hampshire page as well as the Anime page in the early days for him. You know what I mean? But, of course, being new to the field and not knowing all the crap that’s really going on, you know, I was admittedly dazzled because I’m like, oh, you know, anytime somebody that you think is bigger than you takes notice of you, of course, you’re going to be like, oh, this is really cool.

(1:08:55 – 1:09:07)
Like, you know, I’m getting noticed. And, you know, of course, now I really don’t care. Obviously, who doesn’t? But, you know, at the time when you’re just like stepping foot in, like I didn’t know all this crap was going on.

(1:09:08 – 1:09:15)
I didn’t know all the drama that was going on. I was really naive. So, of course, I’m like, oh, my gosh, like New England Ghosts, you guys are awesome.

(1:09:16 – 1:09:38)
And now I wouldn’t piss on them if they were on fire, you know? But, literally, like, you know, I’m just not impressed anymore. So, you know, but, of course, when you’re starting out, and that’s the danger, I think. And that’s where people like Amy and Eric potentially, you know, can thrive because people that are just getting into the field and have that genuine curiosity, they don’t know any better.

(1:09:39 – 1:09:53)
And they don’t know any of this crap. And, like, I wish I didn’t know all this crap, but it seems like the two years that Amy’s been around, we’ve just been at the forefront of drama, drama, drama. And, you know, I took my stand a long time ago and I stand by it.

(1:09:53 – 1:10:02)
But, you know, it’s a lot of headaches and it’s a lot more than people think. Not everybody’s genuine and not everybody’s here for the right reasons. Same thing as anything in life.

(1:10:02 – 1:10:14)
But, you know, it’s a tough pill to swallow. Danielle, sorry, I had my mic muted still. That was our interview with Danielle and CJ came in at the very end.

(1:10:15 – 1:10:32)
We’re going to take a quick break and play a couple of commercials and then we’ll be back on the line with Kat and John. So bear with us just a moment while we play a few commercials. Zero Lux Radio is brought to you by the Maine Ghost Hunters Media Team.

(1:10:34 – 1:25:44)
Learn more about the team, this show, and how you can become a guest at www.MainGhostHunters.org slash media Would you like to know what it’s like to be a Maine Ghost Hunter? See us live and in action on our YouTube video channel located at www.youtube.com slash MaineGhostHunters Zero Lux Radio is always looking for new and interesting guests If you’d like to suggest a guest or would like to be a guest yourself contact Maine Ghost Hunters by phone at 207-504-6224 or send email to MaineGhostHunters at MaineGhostHunters.org Learn more about Maine Ghost Hunters on the web at www.MainGhostHunters.org The Maine Ghost Hunters media team is looking for new and interesting stories to share If you’re in the local New England area and you’d like to share your story in person we may be interested in interviewing you for a possible showcase piece on our media team website Contact Maine Ghost Hunters by phone at 207-504-6224 or send email to MaineGhostHunters at MaineGhostHunters.org And welcome back to Maine Ghost Hunters presents the Zero Lux Radio Can I bring in Cat and John Hey Cat, you there? Yeah, I’m sorry John, are you there? Hey Tony, how you doing? Good, how you doing tonight? Good, hi Cat Hello, Tony





Yes I want to get this point out, I didn’t write this down so I want to get this point out before we actually start talking As I was listening to this interview tonight I’ve heard it a couple of times because I had to edit it but something kind of sank in a little differently today for some reason and I think it’s because of the conversation I had earlier when we were talking about doing the show and that’s that the team leader of the team that Danielle used to belong to put her at risk the moment he made the decision to force all of his members to become members of this bigger organization New England Ghost that we have been warning people about for quite some time now We’ve been telling people Amy Morrison Rodriguez of New England Ghost She has an extensive criminal history that has fraud involved, she bankrupted a person you know by using, we made it clear the victim actually told us what happened that she used her bank account information and emptied her bank account and bankrupted her and this is the last this is, I mean you do not want to put your identity or your financial well-being in the hands of a person like this correct? Absolutely right and that’s a good point and you know we’ve been telling people and trying to get the point out and trying to get the message out there and you know it just goes to show that she is still pulling these antics and you have to be careful and it’s not just her now it’s somebody else who’s associated with her that’s now putting people at risk Right, this is the point that we were talking about earlier and I just want to get this out is that it’s one thing for you to make that decision for yourself but our biggest concern as main ghost hunters are clients, clients that could become victimized because they don’t realize there’s a choice to be made because the teams that are coming in and representing the paranormal field in their homes they are making that choice for the clients when they involve this person they’re not even letting the client okay, so they don’t even let the client know that they’re at risk so that’s what happened here Danielle was put in a position where she was made a potential victim and as she made it clear she was victimized because she gave Amy Morrison Rodriguez of New England Ghost money to go on an investigation and that investigation didn’t happen and what Amy Morrison Rodriguez the founder and team leader of New England Ghost she didn’t have the money to give back and Danielle made a really good point again why don’t you have the money to give back? I don’t give a crap about your personal finances where’s my money? this is for an event right? now let me get to my big point this is my point she said in her interview and I completely went over I didn’t even really calculate it until tonight she said that when she when she was forced to join this bigger organization because her team leader wanted to be a part of this bigger organization she said there were all kinds of things that you had to do you had to go on a certain number of investigations a year you had to do this you had to do that all these things right? she said it really fast but she also said that they paid for everything remember that? yes okay? so what she’s saying is and you said this you said wait a sec so you’re writing out a check to the founder of this organization and so she said in the price you’re paying Amy Morrison Rodriguez the founder and team leader of New England Ghost directly you’re not paying this location you’re not paying a business New England Ghost should be a business correct? because she’s 501c3 right? that’s right okay so what she’s saying what I heard tonight I mean when I realized what I was listening to is that the organization founder is just by signing the paperwork saying I want to be a part of this organization whether you want to or not you have to sign up for a certain number of events and Danielle said these events keep getting canceled and people are not getting their money back but if you want to be a member of this organization you must sign up for a certain number of investigations lord only knows how much money this Amy Morrison Rodriguez the founder and team leader of New England Ghost is not returning people and how many times this is happening because her numbers are guaranteed to be signing up for a certain number every year correct? yeah and so I mean she’s just trying to make sure she can plan to get you know a lot of money out of people and make sure that they know they don’t have any choice about it exactly because when they because Danielle said when you fill this paperwork out you are saying you are guaranteeing that you are going to sign up for a certain number of these events and these events keep getting canceled now I don’t you know I’m not going to get into the depth of that statement I’m putting it out there that’s what she said and this is why she didn’t want to be involved with that organization she didn’t join that organization she joined the New Hampshire team right so anyway that just I was sitting here waiting for you know this to I didn’t realize how long this was going to go and I’m just and it just sucked me and I’m like oh my gosh so every member that she has coming in is saying okay I’m going to I’m going to guarantee myself five investigations I’m going to I’m guaranteeing I’m giving you let’s say forty dollars a pop for five investigations and if you cancel just two or three of them every year and you’ve got you know like we said if you’ve got thirty or forty people giving you forty dollars it may not be the same forty people that are giving you forty dollars so they may not realize this but you’ve canceled on these forty people you’ve canceled on those forty people and you’ve got forty dollars per person she’s making out pretty well yeah right she’s making out very well and nobody’s the wiser because you know not everybody’s going to be not everybody’s going to be paying attention to what she’s doing over there when she starts advertising for more investigations and more events exactly and uh the wider the wider her pool of investigators because that’s that’s her goal is to be all over right so she’s got investigators in many in New Hampshire and Massachusetts but Mainers and New Hampshire people aren’t talking to each other New Hampshire and Vermont people aren’t talking to each other but she’s talking to all of them right that’s right alright anyway I just wanted to get that out so John what did you think about what did you think about the initial the initial message that was being told by Danielle about her experience with this very interesting male team leader from New Hampshire that kind of sounded like a soap opera to me a little bit detailed it’s amazing something like that would go on in a group I mean we would never let that go on in a group and I still think that the the point you brought up to begin with we’ve had numerous times we’ve heard about Amy Morrison Rodriguez the founder and team leader of New England Ghost having people pay for investigations and canceling them and keeping the money this is the first time we’ve got first hand knowledge from a person but not only is it just people it’s her own groups and they’re making them pay for these and canceling and that’s just amazing that’s a lot of money it is a lot of money and it’s there’s so many not good words going through my head right now I mean not swear words but just like it’s deceitful it’s purposely deceitful you know what if something happens once and I don’t know what could possibly happen but if something happens once and you don’t get the money back to your members I don’t know what that could be but God forbid okay once but multiple times no there’s something going on here I mean right well it’s just the fact that you require your members to attend a certain amount of paid investigations a year and I’m assuming that means that there’s any teams that are part of that organization and how many teams does she have listed and how many countries are they listed in and that’s mind boggling I’d like to see a tax return yeah and Tony said and he made it you said Tony you said she set the price and then you write a check out to her so you can go to it like that’s not that doesn’t sound shady to anybody and like I said I mean I mean you know crap happens I guess I mean I don’t know how it could happen in a situation like this because I’ve done this a hundred not a hundred times but many times where I’ve taken people’s money I don’t bend it I keep it and it goes in a bank account and I pay the location and I’m very anal about it because I don’t want stuff like this happening to me and so you know God forbid something happens and she can’t get payment back to her members for one investigation you live and learn and you never let that happen again but we’re hearing this happening you know over and over again yeah it’s a repeated thing it’s whoops whoops whoops what do you mean things can only things can only happen so many times before it’s not an accident you know what I mean it’s just people need to be thinking about what they’re doing and they’re not unfortunately yeah and it’s like what we were talking about in one of the last shows that we did it’s because oh and CJ actually said it he said there’s so many new people coming into the field and they’re getting and they’re associating with these they’re associating with these people who have their arms wide open hey come over here I’ll teach you everything you need to know it’s because those people can’t get themselves established with groups like ours because we know what the heck’s going on that’s right right exactly and this New Hampshire guy he’s sleeping with someone who he decided to co-found this team with great more power to him and he’s hitting on another member who he was hitting on a girl who didn’t want to have anything to do with him but decided okay I’ll come up and join your team so she purposely involved herself with him not interpersonally as in a relationship but she involved herself with him just person to person because she was going to join his team she went up there for the premise of joining his team he brought her into the team matrix and slept with her that night not telling her that he had a whole thing going on on the side that is not okay and then he did the same thing with this whole marginal thing with that other girl and then she came in on the team in this whole relationship thing do you understand what I’m saying I’m trying to get it out he’s mixing his team I know it’s so ugh Tony he’s dating these girls and mixing them in with his team you know what if you’re part of this team you’re not this team you’re part of this team you’re you’re not part of this team you’re not part of this team you’re you’re not part of this team you’re part of this team you’re not part of this team you’re Danielle was there. Then they went to the client location. Danielle was there.

Right? And he slept with… He was fully responsible for what happened here. And then, when she approached him with, what the hell, he wanted to keep them separate. You know.

(1:25:45 – 1:25:48)
Yeah. Because that’s professional and everything. Right.

(1:25:48 – 1:26:12)
Yeah, oh yeah. Well, look at his style of investigation, too. It sounded like it was a lot of cemeteries.

Everything was evil. And look, you used somebody for bait. Oh, John, how did you like that? Using someone for bait? What? Um… Yeah, real… And look, it’s me using myself for bait, which I don’t mind doing.

(1:26:12 – 1:26:20)
You never ask somebody else to do that. Not alone not ask them to do it, but you’re putting them in that position without letting them know. Yeah.

(1:26:20 – 1:26:35)
You know, and it’s just, like you said, we have a code of ethics and it sounds like they have zero or none. Well, you know why? You know why they don’t, John? Because Danielle didn’t write them for them. Must be.

(1:26:35 – 1:26:50)
Right, Tony? I was floored when she said, yeah, I had to write the mission statement and the motto. And I’m thinking, what? You didn’t join the team. You’re like starting someone else’s team.

(1:26:50 – 1:27:18)
What are you talking about? I mean, you said it. Yeah, I mean, it’s just kind of funny that she joins the team and one of her first roles is to write the mission statement for the team. So you bring a new member on board and ask them to write your mission statement? That’s… You know what? And I don’t mean this personally to anybody because it was already there in place before any of these members became members of Main Ghost Hunters.

(1:27:18 – 1:27:29)
I’ll be damned if one of our members is going to write what my and your, all together, mission is for this team. No. Not even a little.

(1:27:29 – 1:27:32)
The concept is just ridiculous. It is. It is ridiculous.

(1:27:32 – 1:27:58)
I mean, this whole show is wrought with nothing but moral and ethical malfunctions to the nth degree. Teams like that, though, even if they had a mission statement or code of ethics, it wouldn’t really matter because they don’t use them. If you go around the Internet and look at half of them, they look like they’re copied and pasted from another team.

(1:27:58 – 1:28:06)
I don’t even think they read them or understand them, let alone use them. That’s true. That’s totally true.

(1:28:07 – 1:28:22)
You know, and here’s the thing that floored me. I mean, I was raised Catholic and I consider myself to be a pretty morally upstanding individual. And, you know, I have my religious background, my religious beliefs and all that.

(1:28:22 – 1:28:50)
And I’m listening to her talk about them being there with Eric Perry of Central New Hampshire Paranormal Society. Standing there in front of a priest, which, if a priest is involved, there has to be someone there who has some sort of belief that this priest can help. And I would imagine and I would hope that if the priest is there, the founder or the founders brought this priest in.

(1:28:50 – 1:29:06)
Because she didn’t say there’s anyone else there, right? Right. So it’s the founder, and she’s watching, the father, and then the priest. So obviously the founder has to have some sort of belief that the priest can do.

(1:29:06 – 1:29:23)
You know, you have to have some sort of belief in the help that you’re bringing in. And I know that the client also has to believe in it too, but the investigation team that’s bringing in the spiritual help, it really, you really should believe in the spiritual help you’re bringing in. Otherwise, you might as well just be a fly on the wall.

(1:29:24 – 1:29:42)
And for him to, so that right there tells me that, you know, he’s bringing in this help, which it should be a significant help. And he stands there and he literally tells that priest he’s been doing this since he was 10. I don’t know where to go.

(1:29:42 – 1:29:46)
I know it’s funny. I don’t know where to go. There’s a fork in the road.

(1:29:47 – 1:30:09)
There’s the left side is the lie side, and the right side is the freaking out of his mind delusional side. That he actually believes what he’s saying. You know what? I was reading these ghosts and paranormal, not paranormal, parapsychology books full of numbers and data and stuff.

(1:30:09 – 1:30:32)
No, I mean, it’s such dry reading, but you couldn’t get books with like the books that you can get now. I was reading that stuff when I was in sixth grade and fifth grade. And, you know, I mean, and I’m going to tell you what, he was a rarity to be a 10 year old boy doing what he said he was doing that day at age 10.

(1:30:33 – 1:30:37)
Yeah. I mean, he’s a rarity. Go ahead.

(1:30:38 – 1:30:49)
I completely agree. I mean, the audacity of some of these people to just get out there and say they’ve been doing things that they have not been doing, it just astounds me. He stood there in front of a priest, Tony.

(1:30:50 – 1:31:01)
A priest. Yeah. Well, then again, given the teams we’re talking about, you know for sure it was a priest and not just one of these imaginary members that they brought in.

(1:31:02 – 1:31:18)
Daniel said they were standing in front of a priest. But is there someone that that group brought in? You know, I’m just saying, who knows what they’re bringing in is even real from everything we’re hearing about them. Everything is so make-believe.

(1:31:19 – 1:31:32)
How do we know she didn’t bring this person, you know, it’s one of these imaginary members from an imaginary team that she has, you know. Yeah, I get what you’re saying, John. Yeah, I do too.

(1:31:32 – 1:31:42)
We should have clarified with her. I mean, I’m going to say that she was pretty direct with just about everything that she said. So, I’m imagining that the guy must have been dressed that made her think that he was a priest.

(1:31:42 – 1:31:48)
But that’s where I’m going. But I do understand exactly what you’re saying. So, that’s possible too.

(1:31:48 – 1:32:17)
Yeah, I’m just saying I wouldn’t put it past him to bring somebody, you know, to do that from everything we’re hearing. But then again, if it was somebody that the founder brought in and it was just another part of his delusional, you know, people playing paranormal, then why would he ask him how long he’s been doing this? You know what I mean? Like, why would he be, how long have you done this, you know? I don’t know. I’m just, oh my God.

(1:32:17 – 1:32:44)
And she’s yet another person. Because you, me, John, Teresa, and other members of Maine Ghost Hunters were all there the day at that meet up where two of our members at different times said, oh, they know who this guy is. And both of them said in their own way that everything is haunted to him.

(1:32:44 – 1:33:04)
Everything is haunted. Do you remember that? Yep. One of them said that he used to make a, basically a scene everywhere that they went together, which they weren’t that many places, it was like a few places, saying that he was getting scratched and attacked all the time.

(1:33:06 – 1:33:13)
Oh. You know? I mean, this is what I want to get out. I know.

(1:33:13 – 1:33:22)
How many investigations have you gone on, Tony? I mean, we’ve been investigating. Yeah. Yeah, I don’t, I mean, we’ve been on a lot of investigations.

(1:33:22 – 1:33:28)
I don’t know the way to count them. How many times have you been attacked? Uh, I never. Okay.

(1:33:29 – 1:33:35)
I’ve never been attacked, John. How many times have you been attacked? Uh, that would be about zero. Yeah.

(1:33:36 – 1:33:49)
I mean, is Teresa right there? Because I don’t know how many times she’s been attacked. Um, I, she’s, she’s, she’s cooking dinner. But the, the only, she’s never been attacked, I can tell you that.

(1:33:49 – 1:34:07)
But, you know, even, even just having that negative experience, I can only think of one. And it wasn’t, you know, it definitely wasn’t being attacked. It’s, it’s amazing how these teams come up with everything as demons and, and so negative and horrible.

(1:34:07 – 1:34:17)
I mean, there’s been times where it’s been a little nerve-wracking, but I’ve never had anything thrown at me. I’ve never been scratched. I’ve never been pushed down.

(1:34:17 – 1:34:25)
I’ve never been purposely hurt in any way. Even though I ask for it all the time, you know. I know you do.

(1:34:25 – 1:34:34)
It just don’t happen. Yeah, no, but let me ask you this, John. Um, say you and I are, you know, investigating down a hallway.

(1:34:34 – 1:34:40)
We can see Tony down the other end. We’re down on this end. And you say, come up and scratch me.

(1:34:41 – 1:34:51)
Right? And the client, say the client’s sitting at the bottom of the steps, because we like to have the client involved when they’re there. So the client’s sitting at the bottom of the steps, and you and I are down on this end. And you say, scratch me.

(1:34:52 – 1:35:04)
And you get scratched, and it starts burning. Okay? Yeah. Tell, tell me, tell me, what do you, what do you say? What do you do? Well, first, first thing.

(1:35:04 – 1:35:18)
What do you say? First thing, is this a private investigation? Yep, private. Private client? I would never ask for that in front of a client, because I’m not going to do anything that’s going to scare the heck out of them, or, you know. Exactly.

(1:35:19 – 1:35:41)
I’m going to ask for other things. But if it was a public investigation, or, you know, or if it happened, the first thing I would do would be put my hands out and let you guys know what happened to document it. But unless we caught it happening on camera, where you see it just appear, I mean, it’s just an experience.

(1:35:42 – 1:35:55)
Right, but you’re not going to, you’re not going to get scratched in someone’s house, stand up and say, oh, my God, oh, my God, I just got scratched. Look at where I just got scratched. There’s a demon in here.

(1:35:56 – 1:36:00)
Everybody, let’s get out. Blah, blah, blah. You wouldn’t do that, would you? Oh, definitely not.

(1:36:01 – 1:36:04)
I mean. I know, Tony. It’s my job.

(1:36:05 – 1:36:17)
It’s my job. The closest thing we’ve ever had happen to that is Tony’s leg got hot once. And I think the response was, my leg is getting hot.

(1:36:17 – 1:36:23)
And I think my response was, well, don’t touch it. Let’s get a camera on it and see what it is in the light. Right.

(1:36:24 – 1:36:37)
Yeah, no, I remember that. So, I mean, I could just see these people freaking out and jumping up and down and running around. For me, though, my experience would be, hey, this is what I’m feeling.

(1:36:37 – 1:36:52)
Can you check it out with a video camera? Not, you know, not jump to conclusions. My next step would be, okay, what did I walk into? Did I catch a nail somewhere? Right. I’m very skeptical, I believe.

(1:36:52 – 1:37:14)
But I’m very skeptical and I always want to eliminate any rational excuse or way this could have happened. Before I jump to conclusions. But all of that stuff is secondary to making sure that we don’t scare the crap or cause any mental or psychological damage to the client.

(1:37:15 – 1:37:18)
First. Well, yeah. We don’t provoke.

(1:37:18 – 1:37:28)
And like I said, at a private client, that’s not something I would ask for. Yes, I want to communicate and find out why you’re there. But I’m not going to call you names.

(1:37:28 – 1:37:49)
And it doesn’t matter what the client has experienced to me. If it’s all been negative, I’m not going to ask for negative things to happen in somebody’s house. Because if it does, even if it’s just a coincidence or something happens that’s not really paranormal, it’s still going to scare the bejesus out of the client.

(1:37:49 – 1:37:56)
And I don’t want to cause that kind of damage to somebody. Right. But that’s thinking about the client first.

(1:37:58 – 1:38:07)
I’ve heard it in person from two people that are associated with us. I’ve heard it in person. And I heard it again in this interview from Danielle.

(1:38:08 – 1:38:14)
And he actually put it apparently in a video. I hadn’t seen the video. But she’s talking about watching the video.

(1:38:14 – 1:38:20)
She couldn’t even get through the video. She couldn’t even get through it. Because just listening to him, she just couldn’t stand it anymore.

(1:38:20 – 1:38:27)
And he’s telling people that he’s there for them. He’s been possessed so many times. They should not be doing this without him.

(1:38:27 – 1:38:38)
Blah, blah, blah. Well, gee, aren’t you the center of everybody’s universe? What the hell? What are you getting out of this? Tony, isn’t it the most pathetic thing? Yeah, I can’t help but laugh. I mean, I really can’t.

(1:38:40 – 1:38:46)
I’m going to tell you what. Go ahead. Are these people provoking and stuff too? Because I don’t know what they’re going to get.

(1:38:47 – 1:39:05)
I mean, you send out that negative vibe and invite that negative vibe. You’re going to get… You know, if I was a spirit and someone’s calling me names and telling me this and that and the other, I’m not going to be nice back to you, just like any other person. John, if you listen to Barry, which you did, if you listen to Barry, Barry was just stumped.

(1:39:06 – 1:39:27)
He didn’t know what to say either. You know, he was just explaining that this guy Eric Perry of Central New Hampshire Paranormal Society who is the same team leader as what Danielle’s talking about. He said that his team leader, Eric Perry, was running from place to place, having these experiences, seeing things.

(1:39:27 – 1:39:37)
Everybody, come here and watch me communicate with spirits. Everybody, it’s in here. It’s all… I mean, it’s the same exact thing as standing in front of a crowd of people saying, don’t do this without me.

(1:39:37 – 1:39:42)
You don’t want to do this without me. It’s too dangerous. It’s all grandstanding.

(1:39:43 – 1:40:05)
It’s all… It’s like a… I don’t know, what’s the word? Histrionic kind of display of, you know, for attention. It’s… I mean, and you know what? He’s a team leader who’s associated with New England Ghost. We’ve been warning people about… We had… Amy Morrison Rodriguez, the founder and team leader of New England Ghost.

(1:40:06 – 1:40:13)
…was on our team. It was the last investigation she went on. She scared the crap out of one of our clients by doing that exact thing.

(1:40:13 – 1:40:25)
She scratched the crap out of her arm under her sleeve. She scratched the crap out of the back of her neck with her ring. Made herself bleed.

(1:40:25 – 1:40:40)
And then told… And was trying to tell us that there was a demon in this woman’s house. This young woman, 20-something year old woman with a 60-year old kid living by themselves in her brand new… You know, to her it was a new house. It wasn’t a new house, but to her it was her new house.

(1:40:40 – 1:40:46)
Do you remember that, Tony? I mean, how can we forget? Oh, yeah. Chasing this demon. Exactly.

(1:40:46 – 1:40:57)
Oh, my God. What was coming out of her mouth? Tell me your name! I’m like, what is she doing? What is she doing? We were following her around. Oh, I know, you laughed, but I was like… I was confused.

(1:40:58 – 1:41:24)
We were following her around, letting her finish what she was doing so that we didn’t have a fracture right there in front of the client, right? I mean, that’s all I was doing was watching her walk and do her thing. I mean, both of us were like, what the hell? What… What is going on here? And she’s like, oh, oh. And she… And she was like, oh, she tried to fake being scratched the first time, and I wouldn’t buy into it.

(1:41:24 – 1:41:38)
I didn’t know that that’s what she was doing until she… Until we were upstairs. That was downstairs. When we were upstairs, she went for the… She went for the gold, basically, and actually was like, my back is hurting.

(1:41:38 – 1:41:46)
Because remember downstairs when I was down there with her by ourselves? She was like, oh, my neck is hot. My neck is hot. And I was like, oh, well.

(1:41:47 – 1:41:50)
Yeah. And then we were upstairs. She was like, oh, my neck is burning.

(1:41:51 – 1:41:53)
Okay. Well, let me see. Oh, look.

(1:41:53 – 1:42:06)
She’s got scratches. The scratches are very… They’re right where her ring could get to and no further. I told everybody… I told everybody when she got home and put on Facebook when she took off her shirt.

(1:42:07 – 1:42:30)
There were so many scratches on her back that they couldn’t believe it. Do you remember that, Tony? Oh, yeah. And our responses to each other were the scratches on her arm which were in her reach and the scratches on the back of her neck which were in her reach were all burning so badly that the client had to get salve, you know, lotion to put that on her so that it would stop burning.

(1:42:30 – 1:42:41)
But yet, all these scratches on her back and she didn’t complain once about them burning? Right? Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. It was ridiculous.

(1:42:41 – 1:42:51)
It was just like… It was… When does the drama stop? And that was… That was actually… That was the turning point with her. That was it. That was it.

(1:42:51 – 1:42:57)
That was the last. Did she fall down the stairs or something? She didn’t fall down… No. John.

(1:42:57 – 1:43:22)
John. We literally went from I hear footsteps and it was the same exact footsteps from the front door up the stairs and that’s all it was. I hear footsteps and the reason why we were brought in is because her friend her like ex-husband or something had also heard the door close and heard the footsteps with her at the same exact time so she said oh, it must be real because you just heard it.

(1:43:22 – 1:58:48)
There was nothing remotely even intelligent in this in this scenario but like we said we don’t tell people like you know, John we don’t tell you what’s going on, right? No. You go in it’s like a it’s a blank slate you don’t know so so this she’s now the founder of this New England paranormal organization New England Ghost she goes and I swear to god the things that were coming out of her mouth I was like yeah yeah, that’s so far from what any of us expected I don’t even know what to think right now and she’s like casting this demon out chasing him through the house and I’m thinking let’s just follow because it looks like she’s on a path and she’s gonna end soon because it looks like she’s going from room to room and there weren’t that many rooms left and I’m like let’s just go let’s just go let’s go let’s go okay, let’s move along now move along now okay, well yeah we just scurried him out the door let’s go well that’s like the last interview we did they brought that new team member on who had never investigated before and he’s telling the client that the person the psychic is talking to that’s your mother coming through and this guy had never been on an investigation before and here he is telling the client yeah, this is your mother coming through he’s got no idea who it is have we ever gotten a definite answer who we’re talking to how do you and not only yeah, not only that he wasn’t even a psychic right and not only that but telling him that it’s his it’s the client’s mother and they’re angry and they’re attacking people I’m telling you these people it’s all it’s it’s it’s a problem they have issues they’re trying to work out by becoming someone in a field that people just don’t understand people don’t understand paranormal most people don’t understand paranormal aside from what they’ve seen on television so so you and I and there are some good teams in New England you know and we’re working hard to keep things legit straight narrow legit and then you’ve got these teams like this who want to go in and I don’t know you know be the savior of these clients and and and and have paranormal you know trying to get evidence and they’re getting attacked and they’re trying and they get evidence everywhere they go and everywhere they go there’s paranormal activity I’m gonna tell you you know I know every main goal center knows there’s not paranormal activity everywhere we go sorry that’s just not the way it works it wouldn’t be paranormal if there was spirit activity if there was spirit activity everywhere we went because that’s not the definition of paranormal no and we go places where we’ve had experiences or caught EVPs and evidence and go back another night and get nothing I mean it’s not even even if it is if the place is active it doesn’t mean you’re gonna get something and like you said these teams are coming on after watching these TV shows and they’re acting it out and they’re doing that because their goal is to get on these TV shows exactly it’s not it’s not to find answers and help clients it’s to become a star to showboat look at me I’m great they’re not interested in the answers they wanna become a Facebook sensation that’s the first step towards your client’s fame and celebrity and we were talking about this earlier thank you it’s like people are actually mistaking Facebook friends with actual people who know who you really are I mean hello 5,000 Facebook friends all telling you you’re doing great but not really a single one in your own state that even really knows who you are um there’s like there’s like social networking reality everybody loves ya and then there’s reality reality and nobody really even knows who you are I’d wanna probably live in the Facebook world too if I was that desperate I mean God you know you get back from an investigation and you’re one of these guys the next day you get up and you’re like oh I’m gonna post on Facebook I got scratched so bad last night I got possessed I have an exercise schedule an exorcism for Wednesday cause I don’t think I can make it through the week how many people are gonna respond to that I mean sadly how many way too many people are gonna respond to but it’s none of it’s true it’s all you know it’s all make believe if you ask me so much of this um like we just talked about how many of us have gotten scratched I’ve never I don’t think I’ve ever I’ve been I know I’ve been touched before but that’s a far cry from being I can’t even think when you’ve gotten touched how does it feel how hard is it I mean it’s usually it’s so light you almost don’t notice it right or a gentle push right you just think it’s someone beside like it uh I can’t I don’t know if anybody in our group right now I remember one of the last times I got touched I thought it was the person that was standing behind me and I got touched like it had to be two or three times I finally turned around thinking well maybe I’m not giving this person enough space maybe I need to step forward why don’t they just say that so when I turned around to look at him he just stared at me he’s like what and I’m like have you been touching me like pushing me forward and he’s like no but it’s it’s like that it’s like a passive thing it’s not anything that would make you think oh my god I just got you know like that was his spirit you know it’s so passive it’s such a I can’t I just can’t think of any time where any of our investigators have ever been any version of attack ever yeah and that light touch that we’re talking about these other teams that we’ve been talking about that would all of a sudden turn into an attack oh my god they’re trying to push me down the stairs and knock me down and beat me up and yup so and it doesn’t happen that often I mean we’re lucky if we get sounds let alone anything else no kidding it doesn’t happen nearly as often as as we’d like it to that’s for sure I mean I would love to be there to see something something actually visualized you know like like physically manifest itself as proof that you know that it’s there I mean it would be unfortunate for you to get scratched on but if it’s gonna be a physical manifestation of proof that it’s there I guess I guess you’ll just have to take the hit but my problem my problem would be I wouldn’t believe it I’d spend hours trying to figure out why it happened but that’s why we’re there we’re trying to figure out why something happens and and what might have caused it until we boil it down to well there is nothing here that could cause it because we have seen a couple of real spectacular things and so far out of all of them it’s like okay what made that happen and we we spend an hour trying to figure it out you know we’re not running away from it we’re not jumping on our phones and texting on Facebook oh my god this just happened to me we’re we’re we’re looking for reasons to why it happened and even after the fact when we can’t find a reason we’re not jumping on Facebook and saying oh my god this just happened to me about the most you get out of this what a great night that was yeah exactly exactly no that’s true because even in person when we can’t figure out what it is we’ve got cameras on almost everything as much as we possibly can so there’s no way that we’re gonna update people on it because we have to go over the video evidence first I mean by the time we actually get around to actually coming to a conclusion we’re talking probably close to a week maybe more people have forgotten about our investigation and experience I want to get to one more thing before we run out of time I’m gonna do it really quick uh she said that this guy Eric Perry rides his bike to work he’s like a 40 year old guy riding his bike to and from work and I’m not trashing on people who are green cause I’m totally like I like that okay but for a 40 plus year old guy to not have his license and then she goes on to say that he would never tell her why he didn’t have it he thought that he might have the way I’m not sure it was in this conversation but the conversation the real time conversation was more like there’s it’s suspect as to why he doesn’t have his license the other thing that goes with that is being fired from that nursing home where he works quote unquote security and what she said was all he did was walk the building with a flashlight to the point where he can’t be there okay well here’s the thing when she brought up the point about paranormal teens hiring him or not hiring I don’t know hiring but making him in charge of security that’s pretty much that is a very colorful it just it brings it it spotlights the problem it spotlights it it’s a it’s a prime example of the overall picture that you have a guy who walked a building you know in the late hours of the night with a flashlight which is security duty to a degree but that’s all he did check locked doors check locked windows with a flashlight got fired to the point where he could never go back again because it was prohibited he is not allowed on the grounds so whatever the heck he did he can’t even go visit his grandma if she’s there like he can’t go there right and now he is the head of security for for these paranormal events people that’s the perspective you need to take when you’re looking at a situation such as this there was a lot of this in paranormal this guy is a security detail flunky but he is your head of security at your event because that’s how he poses himself that’s how he presents himself that he is fully qualified his qualification was he got fired and he can’t return to that location you said overall picture I just can’t get past that mental image of this 40 year old guy showing up at the client’s house on a bicycle with all of his gear I know I’m going to tell you I’m thinking the same thing I’m like I have a paranormal team ok can you come pick me up because we have an investigation I need a ride I don’t think he’s laughed so hard except for I mean this show you just keep laughing it’s like it’s so ridiculous that it’s funny it really is it’s so ridiculous that it’s funny I know it’s like these two guys that were telling us about their experience one of them couldn’t stop laughing do you remember that he just couldn’t stop laughing I couldn’t understand what he was saying he was just like this guy he’s ridiculous and then the other guy was so he was in such a detestable state he did not want to talk about Eric Perry you remember he rolled his eyes and like started to walk away and we were like no no wait wait wait because you know we were all congregating there and waiting to start our event and everything and he was just like he wanted nothing to do with it because it was so pathetic to him he was he was like this guy just wasted all of his time being involved in this team this quote unquote team to find out that it was nothing but a giant joke and the only reason why he joined he didn’t even live in this state he doesn’t even live in New Hampshire remember he he joined he joined this New Hampshire team because it was posed online as this really grand thing with this really great leader and when he got into it he realized he wasted so much time and energy it was just he just didn’t want to talk about it he was like it’s a joke it’s a joke and that’s I mean he was just he was just sick about it so how many times do we have left Tony we have three and a half minutes if I could say real quick I think this interview is here one of the most important things it has brought into a whole new light for me like you said earlier and if people didn’t hear it go back and listen because you have to listen close this person has been taking people’s money for investigations and canceling them now we have someone with a first hand experience not only is she doing this to all of her members of teams that are just teams that aren’t even hers teams that are just part of her big organization she’s taking their money and customers money people who want to go on investigations taking their money and then canceling investigations and not receiving any of this money which is a big fraud it’s just blatant theft and this is an account a first hand account from someone that has happened to which I don’t think we’ve had in any of the other interviews of someone talking about going to these events or not going to the events but paying for them and never getting their money back I mean that’s just brought it to a whole new level New England Ghost that these little teams belong to and she calls them branches and so this New Hampshire team is Central New Hampshire Paranormal Society is one of those branches so that’s I just wanted to clarify what you’re saying that’s all and so when we’re warning people about this group and they say well we’re not actually part of that group we don’t deal with her well you’re still being affected by it and you’re not doing anything about it you know wake up yep alright alright well we have just a minute left yes we want to say thank you to our listeners thank you to Danielle and thank you to CJ for joining us for that interview and you know sharing your experiences with what happened to you with these teams and thank you to our listeners again we hope that you join us for our future episodes of Fraud in the Paranormal and check out our archives and check out our website www.MainGhostHunters.org and check out our other website www.ZeroLuxParanormal.com thanks John thanks Kat have a great night we’ll talk to you again soon